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Hi Ken, so sorry about the name, I am seeing matron at the twilight home about upping my medication. will look at parts and come back to you. Cheers Chris
 

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? All 2600s are Unicorns

Some Sprints had paint colour under the bonnet some were black.

My RHD UK spider has US spec over-riders and clear US style indicators .

Alfa and there suppliers just used what they had in the bin to get the next car out of the door

Engines come from a range of numbers for the year and went in the next car that came along etc
 

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Discussion Starter #23
More exploration ensues!

I have revealed the chassis number and original log book - 822218 - engine number AR00601*03296 so they appear to be original.
I made a typo in the post above.

The original colour was grey shown in the log book. I will be sending to the Historic link for certification.
So, series 1 converted to RHD?
The door handle is as Ruedi requested.
The block casting number shows wear or poor casting.

The engine number in the photo is from my spare - AR00608*00013 - and I haven't a clue where it came from.
 

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Hello all
I checked the engine original number on chassis # 822269 Grigio and it is 601-03187
Funny Ken's car is 51 cars older than mine and his engine number as shown in the original booklet
is 9 engines newer than mine. Just sheds some light on the production time line I think.
Ruedi what do you think? Are the Touring Spiders the same engine numeration?
Ric
 

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Ken
I for got to mention that in your booklet the call the color of your car VISONE if I can read it correctly.
The literal translation for that is MINK. Is that a color?? Mine is called Grigio Grafetti
Ric
 

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More exploration ensues!

I have revealed the chassis number and original log book - 822218 - engine number AR00601*03296 so they appear to be original.
I made a typo in the post above.

The original colour was grey shown in the log book. I will be sending to the Historic link for certification.
So, series 1 converted to RHD?
The door handle is as Ruedi requested.
The block casting number shows wear or poor casting.

The engine number in the photo is from my spare - AR00608*00013 - and I haven't a clue where it came from.
Thanks for postig the pictures. They answer several questions: Yes, this seems to be a Series 1 LHD Sprint converted to RHD, with an original LHD engine, and a spare RHD engine that came from a later RHD Sprint/Spider. On both, LHD and RHD cars, Sprint/Spider engines were the same type and number range, therefore there is no information what the original car of the RHD engine might have been.

The casting number on the block (and/or its quality) is insignificant. I believe it was only used for tracking the moulds in the casting process.

As Ric alluded to, neither bodies or engines were build in chassis number or engine number sequence (I'm not sure about whether or not the Bertone numbers body numbers may be in sequence, though). It is conceivable that statistical analysis of a sufficient number of chassis, engine and body numbers could reveal a pattern of production batches and/or batch sizes (say increments of 100 or 250 appearing as clusters), but probably too much time has passed to have a sufficient number of original cars available for studying such academic aspects of how these cars were built. It's nice to have Ric's numbers for comparison.

The papers indicate Visone as body color (see this post for an example). Looking at the pictures posted above, this would also answer the question as to whether or not the engine compartment of this car was body color or chassis black: The paint in the engine compartment seems to be original and appears to me as chassis black.
 

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Discussion Starter #27 (Edited)
Thanks again Ric + Ruedi.

So, Visone!
I my be able to get a sample from under the rear light cluster to but if anyone had swatch or other colour data that would be great.
Tricky times today removing the door chrome, quarter light, etc. ... but I got there! :-D

All of the hidden panels are coated in underseal or similar, as is the engine bay, which has probably saved the car from the dreaded rust worm.
 

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Tracking down Visone will be an adventure in and by itself, as there are several color codes -- and some of them may be conflicting and/or may have gotten lost in company and/or industry re-organizations:

  • Glasurit currently lists a Visone with code AR-854 that supposedly was used 1960-62 (possibly for 102 Sprint), but they have no formula for it, meaning it's not available from them (possibly because BASF sold off a paint division to PPG in 2008). I never found any other reference or records referring to this 854 number, therefore I don't trust it.
  • A few years ago, Glasurit listed a Visone as AR-011 and AR-128, with reference to the factory code KF-18011. I believe the KF code to be correct, but I have doubts about both, AR-011 (most AR-0xx colors were white) as well as AR-128 (no other references found to that color).
  • One of the best hints probably comes from Alfa Tech. Bulletin 0.00.038 from 1965 (see here), which lists KF 18011 as "Mink Brown" (only used on 2600 Sprint) with "Alfa Code Ref old" as 20723, of which the last 3 digits usually became the modern AR color code, i.e. AR-723 (the bulletin also lists Ditzler mixture code 22490). The same color was also mentioned years ago on the Glasurit web site with Glasurit/PPG code ALF723, supposedly available between 1955-1960. Some Lechler catalogs I have list the paint as "Visone Scuro" (= "dark") with Lechler code 723-1195, supposedly (first) available in 1958. So, I'd say researching color code AR-723 probably gives the best chance of success. The references to 1955 and 1958 indicate this color may also have been available on some 1900 cars (750/101 Giulietta is much less likely), but that would be conjecture at this point in time.
  • A slightly confusing side issue is that there is/was also a "Beige Visone" AR-110 that supposedly was used 1986-1988 (i.e. probably a different color that was used much later).
 

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My 1964 2600 Sprint was originally Visone. However, it has been repainted Alfa Russo. I am very curious as to what the paint color really was as Tubut indicates that is was limited to the 2600 Sprint. Is there anyone who can provide a visual reference for KF18011 or AR-273 or Ditsler mixture code 22490?
 

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My 1964 2600 Sprint was originally Visone. However, it has been repainted Alfa Russo. I am very curious as to what the paint color really was as Tubut indicates that is was limited to the 2600 Sprint. Is there anyone who can provide a visual reference for KF18011 or AR-273 or Ditsler mixture code 22490?
Typos aside, I don't think you'll find any reliable information. In addition to this link I posted above, this car may show a reasonable approximation of what "Visone" might look like -- if you trust both that (a) the camera that the pictures were taken with, and (b) the screen you're looking at, recorded and reproduce the color with any degree of accuracy.

As I learned from being allowed to look over the shoulders of the guys at RX Autoworks, in context of trying to figure out the color for this car, color scanners cannot be trusted either.
 

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As a quick note...

When working for an Alfa dealer in the 70s, my dream car was a “plumb”, aka “eggplant” GTV with tan interior. The angels sang.
 

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d'Amico Tabucchi use actual records

One cannot rely upon Fusi when it comes to what year an Afa was produced and sold. He somewhat gives us the assumption that the chasses were produced in numerical sequence, but in fact they bounce around terribly, Regardless, from the actual factory records D'Amico and Tabucchi verify that iAR822218 is clearly a 1963 2600 sprint. As for motor numbers one must on bodies by Touring realize that the Touring factory was in Torino but the motors were furnished form the Alfa Factory in Milan. If one gets shipped 100 engines, for example, and puts them in a room awaiting the finishing of chassis components the engines with smallest numbers might be on the side furthest from the door to the room where the workers go to get them to put them in the cars. There may be some sequential numbering for engines and chassis for an Alfa produced totally in the Alfa plant, but not when a coach builder is involved.

As for your choice of color now, you might as well have a color you like Frankly, I have seen a Mink brown and did not like it. Sprints are not known to be in great demand to be of fantastic value. But, of course, I was flabbergasted at the current demand for 2000 and 2600 spiders.
 

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Sprints not in great demand

Compared to Spiders the Sprint is not so valuable - but life is relative these are current sprint values
1963 Alfa Romeo 2600 Sprint S1
Coupe
Values by Condition
Fair
£18100
Good
£24200
Excellent
£35500
Condition 2: Excellent
#2 cars could win a local or regional show. They can be former #1 cars that have been driven or have aged. Seasoned observers will have to look closely for flaws, but will be able to find some not seen by the general public. The paint, chrome, glass and interior will all appear as excellent. No excessive smoke will be seen on startup, no unusual noises will emanate from the engine compartment. The vehicle will drive as a new car of its era would. No customisations have been made. The one word description for #2 cars is "excellent."
 
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