Alfa Romeo Forums banner

1 - 20 of 37 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,015 Posts
Discussion Starter #1
don't look now;











"The car is an ISO Bizzarini A3C - number 201........... and the first one built. Martin just went straight on at Madgwick corner for some reason. He suffered a broken elbow and is home recovering."
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
193 Posts
Glad he's well and recovering. Shame about the car!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
150 Posts
Iso

I hope he's the owner because the restoration costs will probably be
one-half the value of the car. I'm glad he only had a broken arm.

Mark


P.S.: I'm surprised they removed the roof since his injuries were minor?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
572 Posts
...

sick to my stomach looking at that...not because he broke his elbow (I'm sorry about that), but just look at that beautiful Bizza':(
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
6,032 Posts
I think that took place on his first full hot lap after the driver change. That car was running well in the first half of the race so it must have been driver error. It wouldn't be the first time that a car of major importance has been totalled against that wall. In 1999 or 2000 (can't recall which one) I saw one of the Aston Martin Project cars hit that wall very hard indeed, but it didn't cause the chassis to buckle like that Iso A3C (to give it its correct name).

Ironically, it was the second time that it had been involved in an accident that weekend - the first time, it was hit in the back by a guy driving a Corvette during the qualifying session, but damage was superficial and they managed to beat out the worst of the panel damage. It's an important car, the first chassis built. I just hope it can be fixed.

Alex.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
150 Posts
Iso

Alex:

The driver admitted to an error (dropped a wheel off the track) on the
Atlas F-1 website. He's an accomplished vintage racer having won
many Vintage F-1 races etc...and was qualified to drive the car. I was
concerned about the extent of the damage and how the car buckled.
I've hit the tires with my 95' tube-frame formula car and the driver's
compartment wasn't damaged, and most of the time I could drive the car
back to the paddock. So I hope it's not a common design flaw and most
vintage cars survive the contact much better.

Mark
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
2,078 Posts
sick to my stomach looking at that...not because he broke his elbow (I'm sorry about that), but just look at that beautiful Bizza':(
Ditto that :(
 

·
Administrator
Joined
·
13,641 Posts
I was concerned about the extent of the damage and how the car buckled.
I've hit the tires with my 95' tube-frame formula car and the driver's
compartment wasn't damaged, and most of the time I could drive the car
back to the paddock. So I hope it's not a common design flaw and most
vintage cars survive the contact much better.

Mark
This is vintage car racing, ofcourse they were not designed to crash well ... heck that car probably would not even have come originally with a safety belt.

That is why vintage racers need to drive completely different to real race drivers ... but unfortunately the european/english vintage race scene drivers think they are more important than the interesting cars, and that winning is actually important in these events. Its not, and guess what the crowd came to see that car, not Martin.

Pete
ps: Glad he is alright, but I really wish the europeans/english would stop racing these cars like they do not matter (admittedly this probably not the case and a simple driver error, but why so close to the edge in the first place). Why not enter modern touring cars or something.

You can race hard but as long as you remove the win at all costs attitude the car will more than likely race another day. If winning is that important ... fnck off I say!
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
2,078 Posts
So a few questions: If that particular wall has claimed several cars, why hasn't the track done more to make it safer? Why don't they have gravel instead of lawn? Why are the tires at that bend essentially a retaining wall? It looks as if at least the second row of tires are filled with dirt and have plants growing out of them, and the grade of the earth behind it is flush with the tops of those same tires. How is that safe? Shouldn't tire walls be "free-standing", in the sense that they are designed to give a bit and disperse energy upon being impacted. If there is solid earth behind them - you're essentially crashing into a rubber lined rock wall. In the first photo, the car is passing by what appears to be a correctly designed tire barrier - sitting above grade, but where the car actually impacted - it's not? Anyone able to shed some light on this? I don't know lick about track design, but it seems to me something is flawed in that particular corner.
 

·
Administrator
Joined
·
13,641 Posts
So a few questions: If that particular wall has claimed several cars, why hasn't the track done more to make it safer? Why don't they have gravel instead of lawn? Why are the tires at that bend essentially a retaining wall? It looks as if at least the second row of tires are filled with dirt and have plants growing out of them, and the grade of the earth behind it is flush with the tops of those same tires. How is that safe? Shouldn't tire walls be "free-standing", in the sense that they are designed to give a bit and disperse energy upon being impacted. If there is solid earth behind them - you're essentially crashing into a rubber lined rock wall. In the first photo, the car is passing by what appears to be a correctly designed tire barrier - sitting above grade, but where the car actually impacted - it's not? Anyone able to shed some light on this? I don't know lick about track design, but it seems to me something is flawed in that particular corner.
Great points.

I guess that want it to look like an old style meeting ... but as you say unless they take safety more seriously sad things will soon happen and then the meeting will be forced to close.

The old days were great, but not the racing related deaths.
Pete
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
6,032 Posts
I checked out the Atlas F1 site this evening - and if anyone needs confirmation of PSk's line about certain ego-fuelled drivers thinking themselves to be more significant than their cars, you only need to look at the thread where Martin Stretton (the allegedly good driver who totalled that A3C) whinging and thanking everyone for their get well soon messages, blah blah.

Any thoughts from Stretton for the wreck he made? Regret and apologies to the car's owner? Not a word. Says it all, doesn't it?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,740 Posts
Might be possible to "restretch" this chassis on a frame machine but the expense is going to be like amputating his wallet from his back pocket. Makes one wonder why the driver didn't put the car in to a tight spin to burn off some of that energy before hitting that immovable tire barrier? Might not have had time or room? What a great car the A3C is.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
282 Posts
This is vintage car racing, ofcourse they were not designed to crash well ... heck that car probably would not even have come originally with a safety belt.

That is why vintage racers need to drive completely different to real race drivers ... but unfortunately the european/english vintage race scene drivers think they are more important than the interesting cars, and that winning is actually important in these events. Its not, and guess what the crowd came to see that car, not Martin.

Pete
ps: Glad he is alright, but I really wish the europeans/english would stop racing these cars like they do not matter (admittedly this probably not the case and a simple driver error, but why so close to the edge in the first place). Why not enter modern touring cars or something.

You can race hard but as long as you remove the win at all costs attitude the car will more than likely race another day. If winning is that important ... fnck off I say!
I don't know... the typical American alternative seems to be to roll these cars on and off trailers for everyone's viewing pleasure. To my mind, that's not what these cars were built for.

It's easy to say race hard, but don't go for the win at all costs, but I'd bet it's pretty hard to keep from going over that line in practice.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
118 Posts
I'm sorry-I like to drive my old cars pretty hard, but not risk their well being. This was NOT sporting.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
282 Posts
I'm sorry-I like to drive my old cars pretty hard, but not risk their well being. This was NOT sporting.
I'm not sure I get the "not sporting" thought. He made a mistake and dropped wheel off the track onto the grass. Despite the comments made here about "winning at all costs," it doesn't sound like he was passing 4 wide, trying to stuff himself into a gap that didn't exist, or attempting to outbrake someone into a tight corner. Or maybe he was doing all of these things, but on the evidence presented here, none of us knows one way or the other, so why are we judging so harshly?

Obviously, no one should drive their cars harder than they want. You don't want to risk the well-being of yours, fine. The owner of this ISO absolutely knew that this was a risk when he entered it in the Goodwood event, though. It's a race, not parade laps, and this isn't the first time sheet metal has been bent there. If that's the ISO owner's choice -- and inviting a non-owner driver is part of that choice -- why shouldn't we respect that the same as we respect your choice not to take that risk?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
118 Posts
Simply because it's a foolish act for something so historically significant. Go ahead and drive the hell out of a recreation, but save the originals. I don't see the Mona Lisa being passed around like a modern day magazine, regardless of who owns it.
You think this is going to be the same car after a rebuild? Everyone knows about the damage that's been done. The car's pretty worthless now.

Sad.
 

·
Administrator
Joined
·
13,641 Posts
Rob,

You need to read this "what is really going on" post from FerrariChat:
http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/showthread.php?p=137042436#post137042436
DAYTONASME said:
Goodwood Revival '07

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

This year's Revival has wider implications on historic motorsport globally......

In the seventies and eighties racing in the UK was hard, accidents were infrequent and ex F1, Touring car or modern day formulae drivers were rarely seen - John Surtees and Sir Stirling Moss accepted.The undoubted "stars" were Neil Corner and the late and much missed Patrick Lindsay - enthusiasts to the core with extremely desirable stables of cars and as amateurs, the talent to drive them.

Outside Europe, the talent and enthusiasm were still there, but at Steve Earle's (organiser of the Laguna Seca races) insistence, racing Stateside was about demonstration and not "bending" the car.

In the intervening period in Europe - much has changed and for the most part - the better.Amongst others, retired F1 (eg Dickie Atwood), sportscar veterans (Alain de Cadenet and Willie Green) and ex Formula 3 (Peter Hardman) drivers have helped "swell the ranks", as the current custodians of cars seek to have them raced as they were when new...not to mention the "cottage industry" of race preparers of which Martin Stretton is one of the best known and respected.

In the US and elsewhere - those owners/drivers seeking "tougher" competition have headed to Europe - Californian Don Orosco and his Scarab's are a vivid memory, whilst more recently Duncan Dayton and James King have been regular attendees at the Monaco Historique - and they're not alone!Paul Samuels and Don Thallon (both from Oz) have freighted cars to the UK for a season's competition and Mexican Nicolas Zapata drives his 250SWB with verve in the Shell European Historic Ferrari Challenge.

What has changed fundamentally -

-the "Historic" season starts at Moroso Park Florida in January (Shell North America Historic Ferrari Challenge) and is relentless across the globe to the completion of the Targa Espana in late October.

-it has become "one" movement, where collectors/drivers freight cars to events worldwide

-it has created employment for the preparers and associated support services of the cars

-it has become big business (Goodwood Festival of Speed, Monterey, Nurburgring Oldtimer, Festival of Speed)

-the owners pursuit of success has in some cases compromised originality (2 team mechanic's refused a race scrutineer at the '07 Revival, post race access to 2 cars over allegations of over sized/non standard engines)

-a "win at any cost" mentality has crept into the sport

-driving standards have deteriorated as "hot-shoes" are drafted in to race cars that they are not "sympatico" with, but that's OK because the car isnt necessarily standard anyway!! (A recent incident at the Silverstone Classic involving a Caterham Lights driver in a pre-war Alta and an amateur in an Alfa Monza highlight this trend all too well)

Goodwood - its big business, the prestige of winning is significant and something needs to change before the unthinkable happens.It's a dangerous circuit - just ask Sir Stirling Moss!

E
Money has taken over interest in the cars and drivers well being!
Pete
 
1 - 20 of 37 Posts
Top