Joined
·
4,075 Posts
Is this GTV6's race history verifiable?
1 - 20 of 33 Posts
Joined
·
143 Posts
I don't know, but the car looks to have had some serious modifications like the doors, roll cage, dash, outboard drilled rear brakes, racing fuel cell, plumbed in extinguisher, adjustable pedal box (looks to be 3 master cylinders under the bonnet), although the engine itself looks fairly standard, all I can spot is 1 hose missing off the big rubber intake elbow and the extractors. If there is a way to verify it's credentials then it's a pretty serious car and would love to know what it's worth.
Joined
·
3,779 Posts
Greg,
One picture shows a SCCA logbook. This should list the races the car competed in, then maybe a little google work might help. Also, ITS is "Improved Touring" and SSS is "Showroom Stock" and the car had to be in considerably different configurations to run in these classes.
When / If Richard Jemison joins the discussion, he will likely bring a lot of knowledge to the discussion.
One picture shows a SCCA logbook. This should list the races the car competed in, then maybe a little google work might help. Also, ITS is "Improved Touring" and SSS is "Showroom Stock" and the car had to be in considerably different configurations to run in these classes.
When / If Richard Jemison joins the discussion, he will likely bring a lot of knowledge to the discussion.
Joined
·
4,075 Posts
I tried the Google search option with no success. I can't find out what type of car was the SCCA ITS champion for any years in the 80's, let alone exactly what car. There must be a site that keeps track of this stuff.
No question this was a serious GTV6 racer, I would just like to be able to verify some history.
Greg
No question this was a serious GTV6 racer, I would just like to be able to verify some history.
Greg
Greg: I don´t know exactly how racing activities are organized in your country, but probably there is similar way of organizing racing in most countries.
A race car has a racing license based on its chassis number and gets its start number from that organization. If you know the start number(the number on the door), you can check with the organization what results have been achieved according to results lists. Has the car been racing with different organizations it probably had different start numbers.
Here these results nowadays can be checked by an internet service as the results are presented online and can be checked anytime.
For older results the organizers have to be contacted, but you would probably need the chassis number of the car.
G.K.
A race car has a racing license based on its chassis number and gets its start number from that organization. If you know the start number(the number on the door), you can check with the organization what results have been achieved according to results lists. Has the car been racing with different organizations it probably had different start numbers.
Here these results nowadays can be checked by an internet service as the results are presented online and can be checked anytime.
For older results the organizers have to be contacted, but you would probably need the chassis number of the car.
G.K.
Joined
·
4,075 Posts
Thanks Gabor.
Greg
Greg
Joined
·
8,579 Posts
Race car
If you have a log book # the SCCA historian/Archivist, Peter Hylton, can pull results, but with some certainty the prep on this car wouldn`t get it anywhere near the front half of an SCCA grid in any class that I know of.
Peter`s "SCCA" address is still, P.O. Box 549, Brownsburg, In. 46112 as far as I know...
The IMSA Firehawk series was for Stock vehicles (also see: SCCA SS Showroom Stock class), but IMSA did not use "logbooks.
Any legal SCCA car had it`s logbook # stamped on the roll cage near the driver`s door.
Who was the original owner in the ~80s/90s?? Is this Tom`s "Fastest Alfa in North America? Yuk Yuk
?
These are GT2 cars! (2nd pic is my Mazda engine builder Jim Coman, driving the Alfa at the inaugural Race at Barbour Motorsports Park. The Alfa was eventually replaced by the Mazda, but not before the Alfa won the Championship in 2002. Shouldn`t have sold it....
If you have a log book # the SCCA historian/Archivist, Peter Hylton, can pull results, but with some certainty the prep on this car wouldn`t get it anywhere near the front half of an SCCA grid in any class that I know of.
Peter`s "SCCA" address is still, P.O. Box 549, Brownsburg, In. 46112 as far as I know...
The IMSA Firehawk series was for Stock vehicles (also see: SCCA SS Showroom Stock class), but IMSA did not use "logbooks.
Any legal SCCA car had it`s logbook # stamped on the roll cage near the driver`s door.
Who was the original owner in the ~80s/90s?? Is this Tom`s "Fastest Alfa in North America? Yuk Yuk
? These are GT2 cars!
(2nd pic is my Mazda engine builder Jim Coman, driving the Alfa at the inaugural Race at Barbour Motorsports Park. The Alfa was eventually replaced by the Mazda, but not before the Alfa won the Championship in 2002. Shouldn`t have sold it....Attachments
Joined
·
4,075 Posts
Thanks Richard. Your Alfa looks awesome. The Mazda isn't bad either, but it just doesn't look as mean as the Alfa.
Greg
Greg
Joined
·
4,500 Posts
This is a well known car. I remember it from visits to Alfa Heaven but don't remember any specifics of years/titles, etc. It's not a made-up car and as such you should be able to check out the history easily enough.
The logical progression would have been IMSA Firehawk > SCCA Showroom Stock > SCCA GT2.
The logical progression would have been IMSA Firehawk > SCCA Showroom Stock > SCCA GT2.
Joined
·
4,075 Posts
You would think so, yet there seems to be nothing about it on the internet. A GTV6 winning that many championships is a big deal.
Joined
·
816 Posts
Firehawk GTV-6's
Hi All,
I can probably fill in a little bit of this. In 1986-88, we raced 5-6 different GTV-6's in the Firehawk series. Ali Lugo, of Alps Racing, Ken Payson, Joe Cresci, Dave Sturtevant and I{Keith Goring} fielded various cars in the Firehawk series. Mike Cozza of Bobcor ran a couple more. Ali sold several leftover cars to Tom Zat. This is probably one of them. IMSA didn't use a logbook system, so that's no help. IMSA produced a yearbook at the end of each year, which lists results for the year. I can probably figure out which cars are which from those yearbooks.
Many of these cars were switched over to SCCA ITS, so any log book would probably start then.
Many of these cars were badly damaged during those early Firehawk races, so the history gets confusing. We bought extra cars and switched cars several times. I still have my original car and one of Ali's early cars is still here in Ct.
I've probably got some pictures around.
Keith Goring
Alfas Unlimited
Hi All,
I can probably fill in a little bit of this. In 1986-88, we raced 5-6 different GTV-6's in the Firehawk series. Ali Lugo, of Alps Racing, Ken Payson, Joe Cresci, Dave Sturtevant and I{Keith Goring} fielded various cars in the Firehawk series. Mike Cozza of Bobcor ran a couple more. Ali sold several leftover cars to Tom Zat. This is probably one of them. IMSA didn't use a logbook system, so that's no help. IMSA produced a yearbook at the end of each year, which lists results for the year. I can probably figure out which cars are which from those yearbooks.
Many of these cars were switched over to SCCA ITS, so any log book would probably start then.
Many of these cars were badly damaged during those early Firehawk races, so the history gets confusing. We bought extra cars and switched cars several times. I still have my original car and one of Ali's early cars is still here in Ct.
I've probably got some pictures around.
Keith Goring
Alfas Unlimited
Joined
·
4,075 Posts
OK, so it sounds like the IMSA history for that specific car will be a little foggy. Did any GTV6 win an IMSA championship? If so, at least it could be that car. Can anyone shed light on the SCCA ITS champion status? Surely some website keeps track of this stuff.
Greg
Greg
Joined
·
816 Posts
Imsa gtv6
During the years that we raced, no GTV 6 won the Firehawk Championship. We got 3rd in the Championship 2 years in a row. We were up against the Paul Rossi's factory Dodge team and Ray Korman's BMW's. There was no way that we were going to win the whole championship. The GTV-6's handled well and had good straight line speed, but the brakes were the weak link in long endurance races. We got them a lot better by the end using phenolic spacers in the brake pistons and a larger Mercedes master cylinder.
This car that Alfa Heaven has is possibly Joe Cresci's original car that was used in SCCA SSB and IMSA Firewawk. It was lightly rolled at a Sebring SCCA event and parked in favor of another chassis. Ali's drivers damaged 2 other cars{one scrapped and one restored}, and then there were 2 more cars, one of which Tom has in his collection. The other was on loan from Ken Payson's Alfa dealer,HPC in Waltham, Mass. It was returned after the end on the 87 season and possibly sold off as a street car.
Tom Zat apparently prepped this car way beyond the original Firehawk rules and used them in various SCCA classes. No idea of any of those results.
As an aside, during the time that we were in California in 87, we raced at Riverside. Nearby, Ali purchased a pile of parts that were the remains of 2 of Lance Reventlow's Scarab formula cars. As the Firehawk years wound down, Ali switched his focus to the Scarabs and restored the rear engine Buick powered Formula Libre car and the second front engine F1 car, eventually acquiring the last Desmo engine and installing it in the car.
Keith
During the years that we raced, no GTV 6 won the Firehawk Championship. We got 3rd in the Championship 2 years in a row. We were up against the Paul Rossi's factory Dodge team and Ray Korman's BMW's. There was no way that we were going to win the whole championship. The GTV-6's handled well and had good straight line speed, but the brakes were the weak link in long endurance races. We got them a lot better by the end using phenolic spacers in the brake pistons and a larger Mercedes master cylinder.
This car that Alfa Heaven has is possibly Joe Cresci's original car that was used in SCCA SSB and IMSA Firewawk. It was lightly rolled at a Sebring SCCA event and parked in favor of another chassis. Ali's drivers damaged 2 other cars{one scrapped and one restored}, and then there were 2 more cars, one of which Tom has in his collection. The other was on loan from Ken Payson's Alfa dealer,HPC in Waltham, Mass. It was returned after the end on the 87 season and possibly sold off as a street car.
Tom Zat apparently prepped this car way beyond the original Firehawk rules and used them in various SCCA classes. No idea of any of those results.
As an aside, during the time that we were in California in 87, we raced at Riverside. Nearby, Ali purchased a pile of parts that were the remains of 2 of Lance Reventlow's Scarab formula cars. As the Firehawk years wound down, Ali switched his focus to the Scarabs and restored the rear engine Buick powered Formula Libre car and the second front engine F1 car, eventually acquiring the last Desmo engine and installing it in the car.
Keith
Joined
·
4,075 Posts
Thanks Keith, that really clears up a lot. It may have raced in IMSA, but it definitely didn't win a championship.
Greg
Greg
Joined
·
4,500 Posts
Glad to see Keith - someone who was actually there in the IMSA series - chime in on this one. As I said, the times I saw the car were after it was "parked" in the early '90s.
My dim memory says the "Fastest GTV/6" claim was based on speed down the straight at Road America, probably after it was modified to GT2 spec.
To Keith's point - here are a few photos I found on photographer Mark Windecker's site that do show the IMSA Firehawk cars got quite a bit of body damage in those races!
![]()
![]()
![]()
My dim memory says the "Fastest GTV/6" claim was based on speed down the straight at Road America, probably after it was modified to GT2 spec.
To Keith's point - here are a few photos I found on photographer Mark Windecker's site that do show the IMSA Firehawk cars got quite a bit of body damage in those races!
Joined
·
4,075 Posts
Joe, lets keep in mind, he isn't just claiming fastest GTV/6 status, he is claiming "eleven track records, five championships, IMSA S2, SCCA GT2, ITS, SS".
Greg
Greg
Joined
·
2,498 Posts
I remember Dave I thought he sported a Milano which was put on its roof in the front straight thanks to a 944 in practice at Summit PointHappened right in front me while standing in pit row
Had 2 ,One came back ..DOA ,could not be fixed. The other was run at St. Louis,Sebring,Glen and Lime Rock think that was it We ran another in SSB I Thought the only diff between the two was that Firehawk cars could run straight pipe and of course "Firestone's". Little fuzzy on most of the stuff since it was 26 years ago. I built the 3 ,2 Imsa and 1 SCCA cars and crewed but never drove on the track.
Joined
·
3,790 Posts
The old days-
I raced in the Firehawk series 86-88 in a VW GTI in Touring with Alan Ward and Larry Harvey. Towards the end we were doing pretty well, on occasion even beating the more established VW teams like the Hackers and Rosenblum etc. Many good cars and drivers amongst the 3 groups. The Alfas sadly never seemed that competitive and in fact at Watkins Glen I actually had to knock a Milano out of the way down at the bottom of the boot. Too fast to pass on the straights and would'nt let me pass in the corners! As they say, those were the days! It was alot of work for a West coast based team to compete as almost all the races were back east. Thank goodness for Don Deane who bore the brunt of prep and moving everything around.
I raced in the Firehawk series 86-88 in a VW GTI in Touring with Alan Ward and Larry Harvey. Towards the end we were doing pretty well, on occasion even beating the more established VW teams like the Hackers and Rosenblum etc. Many good cars and drivers amongst the 3 groups. The Alfas sadly never seemed that competitive and in fact at Watkins Glen I actually had to knock a Milano out of the way down at the bottom of the boot. Too fast to pass on the straights and would'nt let me pass in the corners! As they say, those were the days! It was alot of work for a West coast based team to compete as almost all the races were back east. Thank goodness for Don Deane who bore the brunt of prep and moving everything around.
Joined
·
816 Posts
Firehawk Alfas
Interesting that Joe Cab found the Mark Windecker photo site. I've never seen his work before. Under Sebring 1988, the last photo in the Firehawk race is my #94 GTV-6 with the bumper knocked loose.{This is the photo that Joe posted. It wasn't there when I first read his post.} Ken Payson got us an awesome qualifying spot, only to be rammed by Paul Newman during an intentional jerky start by the Dodge guys. Payson told me that it was going to happen and I didn't react in time. I was black flagged in to remove the bumper, dropping us down a lap and pretty much ruining any chance of a decent finish. I found a few pictures in an album that I'll scan tonight.
Keith
Interesting that Joe Cab found the Mark Windecker photo site. I've never seen his work before. Under Sebring 1988, the last photo in the Firehawk race is my #94 GTV-6 with the bumper knocked loose.{This is the photo that Joe posted. It wasn't there when I first read his post.} Ken Payson got us an awesome qualifying spot, only to be rammed by Paul Newman during an intentional jerky start by the Dodge guys. Payson told me that it was going to happen and I didn't react in time. I was black flagged in to remove the bumper, dropping us down a lap and pretty much ruining any chance of a decent finish. I found a few pictures in an album that I'll scan tonight.
Keith
1 - 20 of 33 Posts
Join the discussion
