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I didn't know anyone else but me called Nascrap that. Why the heck does anyone like watching cookie cutter cars go around and around an oval with little downforce, and V8 pushrod engines. I mean with the size of the grid, someone is bound to take half the field out, but thats about it. It really makes you wonder why WRC isn't the most popular autosport in the US? There at least you can be trackside when the Subi blows a corner and tumbles down the trail.

Will
 

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Yep. Another vote here for WRC! Unfortunately you can no longer see it on the NASCAR--I mean Speed Channel...they dropped it a year or so ago.

It's going to be a tough few months waiting for F1 to crank up...

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Well. isn't this the superior, well mannered world of snobbery. I happen to own an Alfa, have owned 3 over the past 30 years as well as having raced BMW 2002's in Trans Am and B Sedan, and also have owned a few American iron muscle cars, as well as a number of GMC Motorhomes.

I love F1, but quite frankly it's the playground of the richest of the rich, with unlimited time, money and indulgence. No passing, few competitive teams, and all the drama of a flip of the coin as to who will win. One year it's McClaren/Ferrari the next it's Ferrari/Renault and then McClaren/Renault. Big money, and a bunch of also rans. Technology that in almost no way translates down to production, and money used as toilet paper on exotic one time use parts that are scrapped at the end of the race or the season. Major rule changes to slow it down that are pitiful and ineffective, other rule changes to cut costs that are in the 100's of millions. Heck, Honda spent 30 million on catering alone. If you cannot have a competitive car might as well eat well.

F1 technology is fantastic and quite esoteric. I love it. But as far as competitive racing is concerned it is boring. Get the pole in qualifying and you have a better than 60% chance of winning the race unless you mess up.

NASCAR on the other hand also runs to a formula. Just a much stricter one that allows some leveling of the playing field. Does it take lots of money to win and be successful? Sure, but about 20% of what a single team in F1 spends, and they run many more events than the F1 playboys. They also have much more passing, many more close finishes and the outcome is not determined at Saturday qualifying. From my POV it is much more exciting to watch for 2 hours when you don't know the outcome ahead of time.

When was the last time an F1 race was won by a fraction of a second? I am sure you will point to one or two over the last 5 years, but that does not show the 90% of races that were just plain over by 1/2 way through the race.

Open your eyes, minds and you may just learn something and enjoy it. But we all know that "European/International" minds are just so superior that they do not need to learn anything as common as American racing.

So, I have my Nomex on now just in case.

Marcus
 

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Marcus, while I generally agree with you, that NASCAR is a strict formula, and the racing is a lot closer than most other series, I still find it boring.

The use of "caution for debris" in the waning laps of a five hundred mile race that isn't close enough for an exciting finish is just plain bs. Why must they throw a caution for a simple spin?

The cars themselves are almost cartoonish--like 1/4 mile funny cars. Who can tell the difference between the Chev/Ford/Dodge/Toyota without getting a good look at the "grille"? Ever see NASCAR from before 1995? The cars are less rolling billboards, and more unique. Pushrod V-8's with carburetors, in cars that don't even have V-8's as production models.

Why must they run on all these generic ovals week after week? There are only three races I usally watch flag to flag: The Daytona 500; (because I'm usually looking for ANYTHING on TV circling a track by mid-winter) and the two road corse races at Sanoma and Watkins Glen. (To me those two races are quite exciting, watching race cars that still four-wheel drift in corners) If they would introduce more road corses into the series, it would hold my interest a bit more.

In the end, it is all marketing and promotion--just like F1 in a lot of ways. Either F1 took a page from NASCAR or vice versa, I couldn't tell you. I don't know exactly why F1 is more appealing to me, but the fact that you wait an entire race for the front runner to make that one mistake that costs him the race is more exciting. In NASCAR, mostly it's who can sneak up on the leader on the last lap to take the flag.

In my book, though ALMS, FIA, and Speed Challenge are the races to see--not to mention the VSCCA. Those are exciting races.
 

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From MarcusHMM:

"Open your eyes, minds and you may just learn something and enjoy it. But we all know that "European/International" minds are just so superior that they do not need to learn anything as common as American racing."

I don't really know what I can "learn" from a stampede of oversized 'billboards' thrashing around a track(s) designed for & by a bunch of TV CPAs at Fox. 'Oval Racing' translates to nothing I can find useful. The 'technology' in NASCAR is 3+ decades old! NASCAR's "Car-of-the-Future" is a joke...cookie-cutter-cars designed to go slower! Again, what can I 'learn' here?

Granted, NASCAR does have "closer finishes"...of course if it looks like they might NOT have a close finish, NASCAR employs their "Phantom Yellow Flag" back-up system!

Personally, I'll stick w/ the "...superior 'European/International'..." racing!

Regards
 

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NASCAR= Motor oil+Rednecks+Beer. I tried to watch them run at Infinion/Sears Point in person. It was just bad. I couldn't watch any more. They don't even run the full track, they run the watered down version with fewer corners (those darn right handers are tough). Granted, F1 is mega$$$ to run, and the technology is cutting edge, and the races aren't very exciting but its still better than low tech, pushrod V8s with restricted carbs, and cookie cutter shaped cars. WRC and ALMS/Sports car racing is where its at. At least a Porsche GT3 race car looks like the street car GT3.

Will
 

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Well, it's nice to see that at least you tried. And those push rod V8's are so old school. Maybe you are running a car that has pneumatic valves like F1? And equating NASCAR to Motor Oil-Red Neck and Beer is such a convincing retort.

Maybe F! is cheap French wine, and moldy cheese? All I am saying is that being a condescending snob about American racing gives any Alfa enthusiast a bad name. It's all racing and it's all engines, drivers and teams. Big time racing is no longer pure sport. It's big big money and it's entertainment. When F1 runs a race with 3 teams and calls it a race that is ludicrous. Great technology from a tire company. Maybe if a teams car is ill handling on a particular course they should just sit it out instead of working through it. If you cannot take a turn as fast as other cars, then slow down and at least try to make it a race instead of 72 pace laps. And people wonder why F1 cannot make headway in the US.

For my money I would rather watch a fun SCCA race or the local Friday Night's at a drag or roundy round. Real people, spending their own $ to go as fast as they can. They put their wallets, their time and their butt on the lines.

Same sort of prejudice when people slam the "rice" crowd. There is innovation, great wrenching and some cutting edge ideas coming from that crowd also. There is also a bunch of crap coming from them as well as the Euro crowd and the USA Hot Rodders. No one is pristine, and no one group has the corner on the performance market and finding new and better ways to do old tricks.

If it's ok for an Alfa owner to look down on NASCAR fans, then maybe it's OK for Ferrari and BMW and others to snub us. But then again some owners think their s*** don't stink just because they own a particular type of car.
 

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I don't believe I'm being either condescending or snobbish about 'American Racing'. I just don't like NASCAR! I don't like any version of 'oval racing'! I like SCCA racing, ALMS, IMSA(when it was around), etc. I'm a fan of American Motorcycle (Road Racing) events, too. Oval racing(4 left hand turns) has nothing in common w/racing, except Horse Racing! That's where it originated...about 200 years ago!

As long as NASCAR 'fans' attend races too drunk to remember their own names & throw beer bottles at the race cars, critics are going to keep referring to the 'red-necks', 'tobacco-chewers', & 'beer swillers'...

Regards
 

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I don't believe I'm being either condescending or snobbish about 'American Racing'. I just don't like NASCAR! I don't like any version of 'oval racing'! I like SCCA racing, ALMS, IMSA(when it was around), etc. I'm a fan of American Motorcycle (Road Racing) events, too. Oval racing(4 left hand turns) has nothing in common w/racing, except Horse Racing! That's where it originated...about 200 years ago!

As long as NASCAR 'fans' attend races too drunk to remember their own names & throw beer bottles at the race cars, critics are going to keep referring to the 'red-necks', 'tobacco-chewers', & 'beer swillers'...

Regards
I agree. While I was struggling to watch the stuff, my friend who works at the track had her golf cart stolen while she was delivering lunch to one of the other employees who was working the race 10 feet from the cart. Many of the people were drunk, and the crowd was just bad. When IRL was running, the crowd was much better, no golf carts were stolen, and the number of drunk morons was reduced by a large amount. I don't think I will go back. I didn't like the crowd, the atmosphere or the cars.
After attending both the Wine Country Classics, and the Monterey Historics this year, its not even close to the same sport. I will spend the $85 to get into a good historic race than the same amount to see cookie cutter cars crash on tight turns. I'm sorry, rubbing is not racing, and intentionally putting someone else in the wall or dirt is not good racing. Its crap. The object of the game is to race a clean race and get to the finish line in one piece, not swap paint with the guy making a bold (but stupid) move in a place where you can remove him from the race. If anything, nascar is a disgrace to the racing world, both on and off the track.

And before anyone starts calling me a racing snob, I do race on a very very limited budget. At this point I can't afford my vintage racing license, but I autoX as much as I can, and yes I have a very competitive car that I drive to the race, and then home. No its not F1, but its the closest I can get to it.

Will
 

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I didn't know anyone else but me called Nascrap that. Why the heck does anyone like watching cookie cutter cars go around and around an oval with little downforce, and V8 pushrod engines. I mean with the size of the grid, someone is bound to take half the field out, but thats about it. It really makes you wonder why WRC isn't the most popular autosport in the US? There at least you can be trackside when the Subi blows a corner and tumbles down the trail.

Will

It's spelled nASScrap, and that name is TRADEMARKED by me!
 

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.. I didn't like the crowd, the atmosphere or the cars.
...cookie cutter cars crash on tight turns. ..., rubbing is not racing, and intentionally putting someone else in the wall or dirt is not good racing. Its crap. ....
I feel the same way too, and it has nothing to do with being a snob or feeling that I know more than anybody else. Then, even with all this "excitement", I find it very boring to watch on TV. In fact, I have tried but never succeeded in sitting through more than a few minutes of any one of the NASCAR races... So, sorry, but it just isn't for me, and if someone else likes this type of event, then enjoy it...

Best regards,
 

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Discussion Starter #19
Well. isn't this the superior, well mannered world of snobbery.
Open your eyes, minds and you may just learn something and enjoy it. But we all know that "European/International" minds are just so superior that they do not need to learn anything as common as American racing.

So, I have my Nomex on now just in case.

Marcus
Perhaps if they combine nASScrap with another great American spectacle.
If they set these guys up in a ring somewhere in the infield, I might reconsider.
 

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