Alfa Romeo Forums banner

41 - 60 of 86 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
9,241 Posts
Discussion Starter #41 (Edited)
As we're talking about pictures, I found the picture of the car during the race that was shown on Autodiva on p.54 of Roy Bacon's book "Alfa Romeo in Pictures" (Beaulieu Archives).



Here's a scan of the image (note the caption making reference to this car being an 8C 2300 instead of a 6C 1750 -- the results are clear about it participating in the 1.5 - 2 liter class) and a cropped detail of the driver:
 

Attachments

·
Registered
Joined
·
298 Posts
Handwriting Bleu

Just so you will know, there is no magic program for all image enhancement, but a graphics professional will have some idea of what to look for.
Trying a couple of different color formats, I saw that the ink had a heavy blue pigment that did not carry over much into the wood, then I could concentrate on the black and cyan channels, adjusting highlights, shadows, levels, color balance, contrast, curves, etc. The section I chose is reproduced below.
There is a grain of truth in CSI and other imaginary 'image enhancement' displays.
 

Attachments

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,181 Posts
Further to the Kaye Don notion: In Angela Cherrett's 8C2300 book there is a detailed description of the 1935 LeMans race and the respective standings of the 8C and 6C entries at different points in time. The Devignes/Don entry is mentioned repeatedly. Also the Don in Cherrett's Le Mans description is referenced as Kaye Don in the index of the book. I guess Angela Cherrett would be the person to talk to about this.

Re: Kaye Don's other Alfa entries: Usually in cars of the Stiles team or leased from Stiles or in some connection with Stiles.

1929 Double 12 Brooklands 6C1500SS DNF stripped timing gear - 3 car team entered by Stiles; all 1500SS

1930 Double 12 Brooklands Marinoni/Don 6C1500SS 17th OA - Stiles entered

1930 Irish Grand Prix 1500GS - went off track

1930 Ulster TT 1500GS - major accident; overturned; car caught fire; trapped underneath.

1933 Mannin Moor, Isle of Man 8C2300 (#2111011) 4th Stiles car leased

1934 Mannin Moor entered in 8C2300 Monza - did not drive as result of accident with MG Magnette in which mechanic Francis Taylor was killed on test drive - Hamilton replaced

Also, there is a connection between Stiles and Alfa Paris where both London & Paris co-operated and fielded teams of cars together for certain events, with British drivers who had run for Stiles running on Alfa Paris entered cars, eg Ivanovsky.

So not too long a leap for Kaye Don to run on an Alfa Paris car at Le Mans.

Here's a short biography On Kaye Don: http://es-la.facebook.com/note.php?note_id=393411604524



This is a very intriguing notion, Ulrich! There is certainly some resemblance between the man on the right and one of the pictures you posted (although the noses seem to be pointing in different directions) but I think we would need higher resolution pictures from Le Mans to tell for sure. Just this week, I received (from poster "GuyA.FWI" on AutoDiva -- thank you again!) a higher resolution PDF of "L'Ouest-Éclair" of 15-Jun-1935 that supposedly shows the drivers before the start. The picture from before the event seems to bear much less resemblance to Kaye Don -- but I'm not even sure if the person on the right is the same person in these two pictures from the event.

I'm still trying to locate the source and a higher resolution version of the drivers before and after the event (I sent a PM to the poster on Autodiva earlier this week but have not received a response yet).

As for Kaye Don's racing history, I found him affiliated with Sunbeam but not with Alfa. Do you have any information about races he participated in driving Alfas?

View attachment 201367 View attachment 201366
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
271 Posts
Ruedi,

your photos of the Figoni-bodied car inspired me to check some of my files and I found the attached photo.
Obviously the car looks different than the one you posted. The one below has a bumper and a triangle badge underneath the door that could be the Figoni logo. And as the paint work looks similar on both cars, the door handles are in a different position. These are just some details you see on first sight, there are surely more interesting things to be learned.
Further the athmosphere in the picture reminds me of.... maybe the Paris show, or another occasion.
The photo was offered on ebay, if the date 1934 is correct, I have no idea...

Best regards
Ciao Carlo:cool:
 

Attachments

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,181 Posts
Car looks like an 8C. Chassis #?

FWIW, there is an interesting piece in Simon Moore's "Legenday 2.3" on 8C chassis #2311234 that may have been the Raymond Sommer 1935 Le Mans car. The car was built in 1933. Even though it sported a Touring body, it sports a Paris chassis plate. There is some question whether it was a 1933 Paris Show car (possible chassis only). Sommer did not use it in 1934 Le Mans. Where was it? (see page 743).

Finally, Moore does not list any Figoni Coupe coach work for an 8C 2.3 - only spider, faux cabriolet, drophead coupe and tourer and none of them look anywhere close to your photo.

Ruedi,

your photos of the Figoni-bodied car inspired me to check some of my files and I found the attached photo.
Obviously the car looks different than the one you posted. The one below has a bumper and a triangle badge underneath the door that could be the Figoni logo. And as the paint work looks similar on both cars, the door handles are in a different position. These are just some details you see on first sight, there are surely more interesting things to be learned.
Further the athmosphere in the picture reminds me of.... maybe the Paris show, or another occasion.
The photo was offered on ebay, if the date 1934 is correct, I have no idea...

Best regards
Ciao Carlo:cool:
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
9,241 Posts
Discussion Starter #46
Further to the Kaye Don notion: In Angela Cherrett's 8C2300 book there is a detailed description of the 1935 LeMans race and the respective standings of the 8C and 6C entries at different points in time. The Devignes/Don entry is mentioned repeatedly. Also the Don in Cherrett's Le Mans description is referenced as Kaye Don in the index of the book. I guess Angela Cherrett would be the person to talk to about this.

Re: Kaye Don's other Alfa entries: Usually in cars of the Stiles team or leased from Stiles or in some connection with Stiles.
Thank you for looking up his Alfa race history (and for letting me borrow your books last year). I'll post the hour-by-hour race history, as it appeared in "L'Ouest-Éclair" later. I think you're really on to something with Kaye Don. It's clear he had Alfa racing history. It's also clear he knew Tim Rose Richards, whom he raced against previously (which may explain why an early registrant entry was Guy Don - GB and Tim Rose Richards - GB). Furthermore, it would make sense to me that two experienced drivers rather than an experienced driver and an unknown amateur would achieve a class win in such a high profile race. I'm sure we'll learn more about this. Interestingly, Hull & Slater (in "Alfa Romeo - A History") and Simon Moore (in "The Legendary 2.3") list both Kaye Don and Guy Don, but Cherrett only lists Kaye Don in the 6C 1500/1750/1900 book and doesn't describe the 1935 Le Mans race at all. I'll try to get in contact with her and follow up on this.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
9,241 Posts
Discussion Starter #47 (Edited)
Ruedi,

your photos of the Figoni-bodied car inspired me to check some of my files and I found the attached photo.
Obviously the car looks different than the one you posted. The one below has a bumper and a triangle badge underneath the door that could be the Figoni logo. And as the paint work looks similar on both cars, the door handles are in a different position. These are just some details you see on first sight, there are surely more interesting things to be learned.
Further the athmosphere in the picture reminds me of.... maybe the Paris show, or another occasion.
The photo was offered on ebay, if the date 1934 is correct, I have no idea...

Best regards
Ciao Carlo:cool:
Carlo, thank you very much for posting this picture! I agree that it is most likely a different car -- there are just too many things that don't match. My limited knowledge (that borders on ignorance) of cars of that period makes me think it might by a 6C 2300 (not 1750 or 1900 or 8C 2300). I'll see if Simon Moore or somebody from the 6C 2300/2500 register can identify it.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
9,241 Posts
Discussion Starter #49
Below an interesting piece on Peter Gidding's website on the Alfa Paris badge, running Alfa parts at high speed across the border and putting Figoni bodies on race cars.

Peter Giddings Racing
Eeew. This line is very interesting:
In the 1930s it was common practice for both Alfa Romeo and Chinetti to rebody ex works racing chassis with more pedestrian coachwork (typically by Castagna or Figoni), and then sell same as new.
However, the numbers on the car point to a 1933 car, which is also the year it got the Figoni body. So, if there was previously used in races, it would have been a very short history.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
9,241 Posts
Discussion Starter #50 (Edited)
More on pre-race history

Two additional images have surfaced that probably are tied to the car's pre-race history. For now, I presume they relate to one of the two Concours d'Élégance entries in Nice and Monte Carlo I mentioned in post #29 above.

cornu second photo (700 wide).jpg

1934 Nice (700 wide).jpg

I revived my school French and approached several people and organizations in France to see if anybody has more information about when these events were held and who may have participated in it.

Mr. Pierre Asso of Le Club Passion Automobiles is looking through some archival information. He thinks one of these pictures was indeed taken in Nice, on the Promenade des Anglais near Boulevard Gambetta. He recognized the facade of the building in the background as "garage impérator" which existed until bout 1980 as an Opel garage. He thinks the second picture may also have been taken in Nice (because of the palm trees) but was not able to pin-point a specific location (yet).

We have no results yet with respect to finding out the exact dates and/or participants in these two concours events. Doing pre-war research in France and Monaco turns out to be a slow and tedious struggle because of cultural barriers, language barriers and the fact that the information had to survive WWII. The regional newspapers typically don't seem to have local archives. One of them, "Le Petit Niçois" kindly pointed me to Les Archives départementales des Alpes-Maritimes. I have yet to make contact with this institution to see if they have newspapers for the period we're looking for.

I also contacted the publishers of "Nice Matin." Rather than answering my question about whether or not they have an archive, they brushed me off and suggested I contact the Automobile Club of Monaco. I did that and, to my surprise, an archivist of the ACM responded within hours that their archive only goes back to 1949. He suggested I contact "La Société des Bains de Mer de Monaco" which operates the Casino and several hotels and resorts in Monte Carlo. I have not yet been able to locate a contact within that organization but sincerely appreciated the archivist's quick and concise response.

One interesting thing about the pictures above is that the car has a different license plate (starting with "6404" instead of the "6114") compared to the pictures from the 1935 Le Mans race, which may or may not be indicative of an ownership change. I have yet to learn whether, in France, the license plates stayed with the car or the owner in case of an ownership change. What i learned from one of Simon Moore's books is that all records of license plates in Paris have been destroyed in the early 1980s when the administration changed to computerized record keeping (and historical information presumably was considered unimportant and obsolete). Unfortunately, since in the above picture the last 2-3 letters and numbers of the license plate are obstructed by the front fender line and therefore not visible in this shot, we cannot even tie the license plate to a date when and where this license plate may have been issued (via this web site). Hopefully, finding more information about these events will clarify the time frame.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
9,241 Posts
Discussion Starter #51
Here is what may be an interesting little tidbit of information, almost a curiosity, about how the 1933 6th series 6C 1750 Gran Sport is different from previous versions, summed up on p.234 of Fusi's "Tutte le Vetture dal 1910":

fusi0234.jpg

While the details about the gear box and dashboard are interesting, it's really the structural improvement with a box-type frame that stands out. Reading through the 8C 2300 books, I found a remark that, Chinetti had made such box-type modifications to all Alfas he raced at the Le Mans 24-hour race (going back to about 1930 if memory serves me right). I wonder if Chinetti's insights became the root of the improvement in the 6th series cars. They are certainly not an afterthought, as the box-type frame goes the whole length of the chassis and the reinforcement plates exist even behind the cross-members, as can be seen in the pictures below.

DSC01657 (700 wide).jpg

DSC01666 (700 wide).jpg

DSC01668 (700 wide).jpg
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,181 Posts
Now the question is if all 6th series cars had boxed and lightened frames as in your picture, eg cut-out holes on the inside plating ... or did they usually just come boxed?

Certainly, there is word about lightened 8C2300 frames and I wonder if this is what is meant?!

Here is what may be an interesting little tidbit of information, almost a curiosity, about how the 1933 6th series 6C 1750 Gran Sport is different from previous versions, summed up on p.234 of Fusi's "Tutte le Vetture dal 1910":

View attachment 203271

While the details about the gear box and dashboard are interesting, it's really the structural improvement with a box-type frame that stands out. Reading through the 8C 2300 books, I found a remark that, Chinetti had made such box-type modifications to all Alfas he raced at the Le Mans 24-hour race (going back to about 1930 if memory serves me right). I wonder if Chinetti's insights became the root of the improvement in the 6th series cars. They are certainly not an afterthought, as the box-type frame goes the whole length of the chassis and the reinforcement plates exist even behind the cross-members, as can be seen in the pictures below.

View attachment 203266

View attachment 203267

View attachment 203268
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
9,241 Posts
Discussion Starter #54
Now the question is if all 6th series cars had boxed and lightened frames as in your picture, eg cut-out holes on the inside plating ... or did they usually just come boxed?
I don't know if all of them came that way. But for sure, the holes in this frame were made before the pieces were welded together, as the hole inside the cross-member proves.

FWIW, the parts catalog indicates that up to 3rd series (we haven't found newer manuals that cover the later series), the frame was only U-shaped (as opposed to a rectangular box).

Here's a detail from the parts catalog:

6C 1750 SS Frame (detail).jpg

6C 1750 SS Frame detail (700 wide).jpg
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
9 Posts
Now the question is if all 6th series cars had boxed and lightened frames as in your picture, eg cut-out holes on the inside plating ... or did they usually just come boxed?

Certainly, there is word about lightened 8C2300 frames and I wonder if this is what is meant?!
Herewith I attach some pics from #51 of 6th series.
Clearly to be seen, that the rails were boxed and lightened too.

@tubut
Could you please show us some pics of the rear inner part of the rail above the axle?

Regards
Wolf
 

Attachments

·
Registered
Joined
·
9,241 Posts
Discussion Starter #56
Herewith I attach some pics from #51 of 6th series.
Clearly to be seen, that the rails were boxed and lightened too.

@tubut
Could you please show us some pics of the rear inner part of the rail above the axle?

Regards
Wolf
Hi Wolf. Thank you for posting these pictures. I briefly stopped by RX today to take some pictures of the rear part of the frame rail. Unfortunately, I had to use the flash for all of them and the limited contrast makes them not very clear at such small resolution. Also, I wasn't sure what exactly you were looking for (ugly welds, maybe?). I can send you these pictures in full resolution, if you wish (send me an e-mail via AlfaBB). I can also take pictures of specific details, if you wish (for which you best provide me with sample shots).
 

Attachments

·
Registered
Joined
·
9,241 Posts
Discussion Starter #57 (Edited)
And a couple of additional shots...
 

Attachments

·
Registered
Joined
·
9 Posts
Hi Ruedi,

thank you for immediate reply and the right pics. :cool:

You are right, the welds aren't maybe the ones, we would like to see today:D

But my aim, was to get a certain overview of the whole framerail area in front and above the rear axle, since I had inspected the car, which stood on wheels then, took a lot of detail pics and had no possibility, due to lack of space beneath the car, to get a pic of the complete rear frame.

For comparison purposes I attach a pic of an early 3rd series 6C

Regards
Wolf
 

Attachments

·
Registered
Joined
·
9,241 Posts
Discussion Starter #59
Wolf, I'll see if I can take a picture like the one you've shown when the body shell comes off the frame again. I'll check with RX when that may happen -- I'm guessing in a few weeks, if not months. Do you need this information urgently?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
25 Posts
Weldings

We have a sith series car in our workshop from time to time, VIN 121215065, and I can assure you that the weldings on this one look equally spastic. I only have relatively bad pictures here, but the car will come again next week, then I can post pictures of the different areas for comparison.

Alfred
 

Attachments

41 - 60 of 86 Posts
Top