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Johnny,

Didn't your car just bottom out very badly? If so, I would get out my Owner's Manual and check the inmobiliser... You can also do a search on the BB about the inmobiliser, and cars bottoming out, and what make come loose...

Best regards,
 

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Discussion Starter #22
The bottom out happened a few months ago. I have taken her out only a couple of time since then until I change the springs and engine mounts. She started just fine today until she said I will not start when I was going to put her back into the garage. I did not know this car has a inmobiliser. Would it not ran at all after the hard bottom out. I do not have a owners manual. All I have is a shop manual. I will look in it for it though. Thanks.
 

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Johnny

Ole new buddy...

1. Quit jumping rail road tracks!:D

2. Go check the plenum between the air flow meter to the hard plastic hose. When I say check....I mean disconnect it and inspect it for a tear in the accordian folds. And then check out the hard plastic portion for cracks/impact damage with the hood. And then check the four runners between the aluminum portion of the plenum and the intake manifold. I have never heard of someone hitting the engine so hard that it dented the back side of the hood with the oil cap. You are so very lucky it didn't shatter the pans.

My money is on....since you dented the hood with the train track incident...that the motor mounts are shot....(see you going to replace them)...and you possibly either tore or dislodged the flexible hose running between the air flow meter and the plenum. Now that is really the best case scenario. The other scenario is that the crank pulley and timing sensor may have been damaged from the train track incident. That crank pulley will impact the sway bar if the motor mounts are shot and the sump is impacted. This I know for a fact.:D...unfortunately....:( :eek:


Best Regards,
John M
 

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Discussion Starter #24
John,
I will check the items you said right now. I can post a picture of my poor old pan guard. I was happy that the sump didn't get damaged. I am going to replace the mounts as soon as I receive them. Right after the track incident, We finished the way home with no problems. It was about 120 miles. Since then I only took the car out a couple times around the block with no problem.
 

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Well...feel very fortunate....here is a picture for you...Did this back a few years ago.

Those plenums...especially when the mounts are sloppy...tend to tear. Best to buy a new one. But with the impact....I would check it from the air flow meter to the intake....all hoses. If you get unmetered air in there...just enough to bypass the air flow meter...the car won't start. So it may have tore it a little...and its just now opening up enough to cause it to not start. Another thing....don't touch the gas pedal when starting. Should definitely not have to gas the car to get her to run.

Also...your car has onboard diagnostics. If the check engine light had been on...you can pull the trouble codes.

On your engine mounts....get the reinforcements collars and the round mounts from spruell in Atlanta. Or...someone said Difattas has poly engine mounts? I can attest that the Spruell reinforced mounts work great without any noticable change in anything other than the engine remaining where it belongs...so no drive train vibration etc. Haven't tried the polys.

One final ideal other than the ones mentioned by other bb members....make sure the Air flow meter is plugged in. On Enrique's suggestion....I don't know of any immobilizer or inertia switch like on the older cars. Think that ended in 84 E.

Best Regards,
John M
 

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Discussion Starter #26
trouble code was 1222. I can not see how the idle actuator could keep it from starting. I will go throught the troubleshooting steps once I find my volt meter again. Thank you all very much again. I will let you know the out come of troubleshooting everything discussed.
R,
Johnny
 

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Discussion Starter #27
Going nuts troubleshooting

:confused: Still troubleshooting. I have not found the smoking gun yet. By the indications I have found so far, it should run.:confused:
 

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You said you have fuel. By what measure? I've had a broken fuel pump fuse on the '86 Graduate. It made spark, compression/air, and everything but fuel. But it smelled like fuel. Do you have a fuel pressure measurement?

Where do you have spark? At the coil? Where it goes into the distributor? I've had a dirty dist. cap (graphite dust) ground out the coil on an Alfa V6. That car would cold start, but you'd never get it to re-start once it warmed up if you let it quit. At least until it cooled off for a few hours. Yours still won't start, but that doesn't rule out a dist. cap problem. We're pulling for you, Johnny (and Rhonda).

Michael
 

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Discussion Starter #29
Still searching

New reinforced motor mounts should be here tomorrow and springs on Saturday.:) Still can not get her started:( Coil was good. Will be removing the crankshaft/RPM sensor. Hw can I check it to know if I need to buy a new one?

Thanks,
Johnny
 

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How does the crank pulley look...unlikely culprit since you have driven 100+ miles since impact. Just make sure the sensor is positioned per the manual off the crank pulley. If too far...won't spark

If you ruled out the hoses....but you pulled a code on the idle actuator....doesn't it sit on a rubber seal on the intake. Wondering if that thing works like the Aux air on the older Ljets. If so...that could be letting in
How about back to the basics on this. unmetered air at the throttle body.

But at this point....I am starting to think going back to the basic common issues...like that relay back next to the computer. Might make sure those are good. Are you sure you are getting fuel and spark? How have you verified this?

Best Regards,
John M
 

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Crank sensor resistance (pics available on bb) should be about 1k ohm (1000 ohms). I had one that "worked" at 1.2 million ohms, but only above 45 degreed Fahrenheit ambient temps. Don't expect it to be perfect if it's much more than 1000 ohms resistance. Pins to test are illustrated on bb picture.

Did you measure fuel pressure? Maybe you're running on only the in-tank pump and not the under-car main pump? That would give you _some_ fuel pressure but maybe not enough to start. You can check fuel supply issues by adding starter fluid to intake and checking whether that helps starting. Check spark at plugs by using inductive timing light on each one. You should see spark to each plug.

edit: Okay, here it is. Nice, nice pics (thanks to the poster, David -- Alabamaalfa)

http://www.alfabb.com/bb/forums/showthread.php?t=33731

Michael
 

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Discussion Starter #32
Still Troubleshooting

:confused: Is there a difference between revolution & timing sensor between monotronic and L-jet systems. I followed the tread you sent me. I am getting 520 OHMs. According to the thread, this sensor is bad. I just want to make sure before ordering a new sensor. about $130.00:eek: Thanks for everthing everyone. Still battling the starting issue.
 

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Motronic (like your '91) has one sensor that combines speed and timing. It senses on the crank pulley.

L-Jetronic (like our '84) has two sensors - one for timing, one for speed. And they are on the bell housing.

The link above is about the L-jet sensors. I don't know much about the Motronic...
 

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Ouch. I thought I was doing the right thing. But Eric is right. The "91 is a Motronic system, like our 164 and with quite likely the same sensor. I don't know the resistance spec on that one just now. (And Johnny, that means the part number info I sent you earlier tonight is inapplicable to you; sorry.)

Michael
 

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Discussion Starter #35
looking for the spec.

I thank you both for your replies. Searching for the spec. now for the sensor. Well, I may just buy a new one if I can not find the spec. IAP has one for $118.00. I am also going to check the coil again to reverify that it is good. Will keep you posted. Thanks again you all.

Johnny
 

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OK. Brain fade. I have a '92 164S engine apart in the garage with all its pieces. It took me a while to find the bag with the crank sensor in it, but find it I did. 543 ohms. Car ran when I took it apart to repair a spun bearing. Sounds like it's not your sensor, but it could be your wiring harness. The coolant sensor leads sometimes come apart. Maybe you should check the Bosch 3-pin socket for the crank sensor for its pins being set correctly in the socket.

Michael
 

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OK...I am definitely leaning relay back next to the ECU. Don't know why you are pulling the Idle air code. Can't find my cardisc tonight to load into vista...if it will???...but there should be a troubleshooting section for that code in the shop manual. And that may ultimately be your culprit. Make sure that the hose between the plenum and the idle air is not cracked or split. Also make sure the nipple on the hard plastic hose is not cracked. Finally insure the idle air is properly seated on its seal, with the electrical connections freshly contact cleaned and dielectric greased. Again...I would find the troubleshooting specs and verify its proper function.

On the relays...here is an old post of mine:

..................
Looking at the relays next to the ECU here is what they are in order from left to right as you look at them with the ECU below and the relays above so to speak.

The first relay is the Main/Auxiliary Relay.....0060805422

The second relay labeled S12B in the manual is the Motronic Relay with Diode.....0060807340

The third relay is the VVT Relay....0060805422

The fourth relay labeled S12A in the manual is the Fuel Pump Motronic Relay....0060805422

So the VVT and S12A fuel pump relays can be swapped with the Main/Auxiliary. But the S12B motronic relay with Diode is a different part number. Maybe its your culprit?
.......................

I do know that someone on the board used their horn relay out of the main fuse box to swap and test their main/aux and fuel pump relays. Worth looking into as I have seen this occur with some frequency on the series 4 cars. Other things to diagnose on fuel side is the main filter, the main fuel pump, and the intank aux pump.

Spark wise....got to make sure that its not something simple like a fried coil, rotor, distributor, wires, fouled plug. You need to confirm spark at each plug wire via inductive timing light. You also need to visually inspect the plugs for fouling. If you are getting spark at the plug wires....then the sensor at the crank pulley is fine. It drives the ecu and the tach. One sensor.

We have really ruled out the impact damage being the cause. I am now in the belief that its unrelated and just a common issue that is coincidentally happening near the same time.

Best Regards,
John M
 

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Discussion Starter #38
still troubleshooting

Thank john for the relay identifications. I will be checking what you recommend also. Eairler I took off the plenum chamber and smelt strong gas odor. I know she is getting gas. Anyways, since I removed the chamber I thought it would be a good time to swap-out the motor mouts with my new reinforced mounts. They look great and fit great. Still troubleshooting the no start problem. The coil checked good. Starting to check wiring. I think after I finally get to fix her problem, I will have a color schematic for the motronic system and will post it for anyone who wants it. Well, I need to take a break for the night. Will start fresh in the morning.

Johnny
 

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I always read S4 issues to learn anything that might help with future problems. Here's the message John M referred to:

"One time a hard start, then no start. I was working with the four relays under the rear shelf. When I substituted a standard plug-in relay off our van for the fuel pump relay, the car started. The S4 owner has to be wary though, when substitute checking those relays, because two of the four are DPST type, with respect to the output terminal no. 87. That is, there are double no. 87 terminals for double loads off the relay, so if you try to substitute a standard SPST relay, one of the output circuits in the plug-in connector won't be energized. Luckily, the fuel pump relay is the SPST configuration. Spare for both types is a good idea. While I was in there, I treated the plug-ins and the relay terminals with Stabilant 22 to enhance the connections. In diagnosing the problem, the first thing I noticed was the lack of a hum from the pumps when I turned on the ignition. Unlike the L-Jetronic cars, the S4 Motronic Spiders energize the fuel pumps with the ignition key ON to pressurize the system for startup. I briefly confirmed spark and required voltage, then went on to the relays and pump wiring under the rear shelf behind the seats. BTW-there is no inline fuse back there for the pumps on the '91 and later cars, something much discussed (and improved on) on the earlier cars."
 

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Discussion Starter #40 (Edited)
Thank you all!!!!

:D She came to life!!! :D I ended replacing wires from the ECU to the coil. I will be rewiring her some more. I will have in a few days completed making a color schematic of the Montronic system and will post it. :) I really like the reinforced motor mounts. Next weekend I will be changing her spring. I really want to thank everyone who helped me with troubleshooting her no start condition.
R,
Johnny
 
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