I would buy this car in a Nano Second

8762 Views 124 Replies 17 Participants Last post by autobroker, Dec 10, 2021

alfasrule

Discussion Starter · Nov 21, 2021

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It's a beast! Too new for us.

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Del

· #81 · Nov 30, 2021 (Edited)

We stay with our Alfas, except for the garage queen Chevy SS (did just take it on a nice drive out of state for the holidays though, drove well, easily pacing pretty much anything else on the road, 414 hp making passing pretty easy.

In this area around Seattle and Bellevue, we see a ton of Teslas, mostly because of all the tech workers here. I have driven the old roadster, and ridden in a brand new S, but do not ever plan on buying any of the Tesla models because of the really screwy dash arrangement, with just a big tv screen in the middle which controls pretty much everything. Esp the model 3. Do not like that arrangement at all. And, they say the new big Teslas are even worse, with zero knobs and buttons for even the simplest tasks and functions. Sorry, does not work for me, too distracting and techy.

And, regardless of what our Aussie friends and others think of the Brera (returning to the subject of these postings), I kinda like the looks, having seen one in real life. Maybe the engine is not Alfa based, but really, these days, the engines in the new Giulias are nothing to look at, or hear, or appreciate as an "Alfa" engine. Those days are gone, and within a very few years, they will be electric anyway.

Lol, one nephew does have an electric Fiat 500e. they really llike it for messing around town. Works just fine for going shopping, etc. They are pretty inexpensive now, picking theirs up for $8000, used with several k miles on it.

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planetmojo2

· #82 · Nov 30, 2021

Lots of pros and cons on EVs vs gas powered cars. EVs seem to be making strides in closing the gap. But not quite a tie yet. Somewhat depends on the conditions surrounding each driver on their driving habits and their location. As technology improves there may come a time that leans more heavily toward EVs.

If you live in a city your miles per day are likely less than if you live in a rural setting. And charging stations are more accessible. If you lived in some place like Costa Rica, where the temperatures can be rather mild year-round, EVs can make more sense as well. I reside in a state that is quite rural and has seasonal extremes that make electrics a less attractive option. The battery pack powers more than just the wheels... so, on a cold snowy night, that battery pack is also supplying power to the car's heater, headlights, wipers, radio, etc. Your 'range anxiety' then becomes a major worry. Don't know the percentage of battery that difference makes, but surely not a light added demand. The original Nissan Leaf claimed 40 miles on a round trip. So maybe 15 miles out, 15 miles back, with 10 to spare (under ideal conditions not taxing the stored energy beyond powering the wheels). More recent EV offerings are claiming 400 miles round trip. So, moving in the right direction. If I wanted to drive from Vermont to NYC I'd need a second gas-powered car for less local trips, or to rent one. How many folks can afford to purchase two cars to cover that? If your reason for owning an EV is to save on paying for gas, when it comes time to replace that huge battery pack you may be close to breaking even on cost of gas vs parts and labor for swapping out the battery. Add to that the premium you pay at the dealership over a gas-powered car of equal specs. If everyone were to convert to EVs (not hybrids) in the near future, our electric grids would require a major overhaul. EVs create little to no noise when in operation, making it a bit more dangerous for pedestrians crossing a street or highway. Some have proposed adding exterior speakers to offset this issue.

If your decision to go electric is to be 'green', remember that the battery packs are loaded with nasty chemicals. When you replace the battery pack, do you just chuck the spent ones in the local town dump? Not as big a worry today with a small percentage of EVs on the road. But could be a major concern if everyone converted to EV. Range and charging times have been improving quickly (and perhaps MSRP thru more high volume production costs), so maybe a few more years to becoming practical for all car owners. Mobil, Shell, Gulf, and the rest will need to convert from gas pumps to quick charge stations at some point. And I doubt if the cost of the recharge would be free.

I suppose for most, a cross-country trip might be broken into 8-10 hours on the road per day. At an average of 60 MPH on the interstate (figuring in restroom breaks and lunch) that works out to around 600 miles between full charges. So still 200 miles short of the 400 on longer range vehicles with today's choices.

When I was in design school in the late '70s/early '80s, one instructor in an engineering class was asked if he thought a solar powered car would ever be practical. His response was this: The rays from the sun have a finite amount of energy per square foot. No amount of clever engineering would ever change that. He then did a rough calculation on the blackboard illustrating how this might apply to the question. If you had a full-sized van covered in solar panels (top, sides, glass, etc.), under ideal conditions and factoring in 100% energy capture from the solar panels)... you might have 12 HP to power your vehicle. About the same as a riding lawn mower.

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alfettaparts2

· #83 · Nov 30, 2021

Del said:
And, regardless of what our Aussie friends and others think of the Brera (returning to the subject of these postings), I kinda like the looks, having seen one in real life. Maybe the engine is not Alfa based, but really, these days, the engines in the new Giulias are nothing to look at, or hear, or appreciate as an "Alfa" engine. Those days are gone, and within a very few years, they will be electric anyway.

In fairness I did say I like the look of the Brera. I just don't like the engine or the way the car feels overall. Its not like your driving an alfa.

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PSk

· #84 · Nov 30, 2021

I like the looks of some GM cars too (some Camaros, Corvettes), and then I remember why GM make cars ... and look at my refrigerator, and remember life is too short
Pete

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Del

· #85 · Nov 30, 2021

Tsk, tsk.

Reactions: 1

autobroker

· #86 · Dec 1, 2021

canguro said:
This is certainly true. A year ago, I finally gave up and dumped some shares in an energy sector fund after I lost about 80% of its value. At the time, industry analysts were telling investors that the oversupply was resulting in a shortage of places to store the oil being pumped. In fact, there was "so much" oil that the glut would take years to clear from the market. What those analysts and investors like me forgot to take into account was that we were still dealing with an oil cartel. Fast forward to today, and we magically have an "oil shortage". It makes me wonder how many other industries are taking advantage of consumers during this pandemic, and whether there are unknown forces intentionally disrupting the supply chain and driving this inflation.

I'll bite, since I've owned a Model 3 Performance for close to 2 years now. It replaced a '19 Porsche Cayenne S after I test drove the Tesla on a lark. If you haven't had the opportunity, I would recommend you try it out, just so you can experience it. That test drive, which was mind opening, and some research on EV ownership and charging options, caused me to dump the year-old Porsche, and I haven't looked back since. This past year, I installed Tesla's solar roof on my house, so I generate most of the energy that goes to charging the Tesla. Unless I'm going on a driving vacation, the 300 mile range (in reality, closer to 260 miles) is plenty. Range anxiety is overblown with the extensive Tesla charging network, which is set to double in number over the next few years. With the infrastructure bill having been passed, third party charging stations should also proliferate and hopefully keep up with the demand surge.

So why did I do it? Certainly not for the attention (I have my Duetto for that ;~}). Will it save money? It already is, and if I subtract the maintenance cost of an ICE vehicle, I'm way ahead after a decade that I hope to own the Tesla. Is it green? Not quite. The pollution involved in mining minerals and mfg batteries means I'm a net polluter in the first few years of ownership, but over the long term, I hope to reduce my carbon footprint. Do I like it? It's a different driving experience, and I would never go back to an ICE for my daily driver. To use an analogy, the transition has reminded me of going from a flip phone to an iPhone. You don't realize you need it until you've gotten spoiled using it. I'm still going to keep my S2000 and Duetto for pleasure driving in canyon country or along PCH, so I'm not abandoning ICE vehicles entirely. As they say, horses for courses, variety is the spice of life, etc.

I see cars differently than others do. I've brokered thousands upon thousands of vehicles and there are things that I feel are very important for a daily driver. I'm also an engineer by education, so I appreciate excellence in engineering. Here's my take on the Tesla Model 3:

Pros: When they were $35K, it was a decent price. When there were tax credits, it made more sense financially. Great acceleration. Pretty good handling for such a heavy car. Cool technology. Saves on gas. Good for people who want to be good to the environment. Made in the US by a US company. Great on crash tests. Low center of gravity. Low cost to maintain. Most software updates done wireless. Cool autopilot. Seems pretty theftproof. Should run for a long time. Range is good for an EV. Electronics are very well made - probably the best in the auto industry. Holding value very well.

Cons: Fit an finish are poor. Creaks and rattles. Ride quality - makes me a bit queasy every time I drive one or am a passenger too long. Paint is inconsistent. Less torsional rigidity than a Camry or Accord (not even close). Much of the engineering (vehicle, not electronics) is old technology. Repair costs are very high. Body shops can't get parts. Long lead time to get repaired whether in an accident or mechanical repair. When the car gets old, who can work on it? Tight back seat. Interior is so-so for a $50K car. Odd single screen vs dashboard. There will be a time when you run out of electricity. Can't be jumped - must be towed or a generator be brought to the car. Makes a cross country trip a lot longer and more stressful. What do you do when there's a rolling blackout? Known to catch on fire and when it does, it's very, very hard to put out. Battery becomes less efficient as it ages. Huge cost when the battery goes bad. Becomes outdated very fast (technology moving quickly). Odd seat material.

To me, the cons are unacceptable for a modern vehicle, but again, I see things different than others do. When I see a $50K sedan, I expect it to be an entry level luxury vehicle. BMW, Mercedes, Audi, Alfa, Lexus, Infiniti - they all have good fit and finish, good performance, consistent and high quality paint, nice interior materials and are very safe. For Tesla buyers, I believe they sacrifice on some things to get the technology - or some have lengthy commutes (time wise) and they can save a bunch on fuel costs ... or some are doing it for the green aspect. Either way, everyone has the right to choose what they like and how they spend their money. As long as it doesn't affect me, I'm okay with it.

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autobroker

· #87 · Dec 1, 2021

canguro said:
This is certainly true. A year ago, I finally gave up and dumped some shares in an energy sector fund after I lost about 80% of its value. At the time, industry analysts were telling investors that the oversupply was resulting in a shortage of places to store the oil being pumped. In fact, there was "so much" oil that the glut would take years to clear from the market. What those analysts and investors like me forgot to take into account was that we were still dealing with an oil cartel. Fast forward to today, and we magically have an "oil shortage". It makes me wonder how many other industries are taking advantage of consumers during this pandemic, and whether there are unknown forces intentionally disrupting the supply chain and driving this inflation.

I'll bite, since I've owned a Model 3 Performance for close to 2 years now. It replaced a '19 Porsche Cayenne S after I test drove the Tesla on a lark. If you haven't had the opportunity, I would recommend you try it out, just so you can experience it. That test drive, which was mind opening, and some research on EV ownership and charging options, caused me to dump the year-old Porsche, and I haven't looked back since. This past year, I installed Tesla's solar roof on my house, so I generate most of the energy that goes to charging the Tesla. Unless I'm going on a driving vacation, the 300 mile range (in reality, closer to 260 miles) is plenty. Range anxiety is overblown with the extensive Tesla charging network, which is set to double in number over the next few years. With the infrastructure bill having been passed, third party charging stations should also proliferate and hopefully keep up with the demand surge.

So why did I do it? Certainly not for the attention (I have my Duetto for that ;~}). Will it save money? It already is, and if I subtract the maintenance cost of an ICE vehicle, I'm way ahead after a decade that I hope to own the Tesla. Is it green? Not quite. The pollution involved in mining minerals and mfg batteries means I'm a net polluter in the first few years of ownership, but over the long term, I hope to reduce my carbon footprint. Do I like it? It's a different driving experience, and I would never go back to an ICE for my daily driver. To use an analogy, the transition has reminded me of going from a flip phone to an iPhone. You don't realize you need it until you've gotten spoiled using it. I'm still going to keep my S2000 and Duetto for pleasure driving in canyon country or along PCH, so I'm not abandoning ICE vehicles entirely. As they say, horses for courses, variety is the spice of life, etc.

Shoot, I just re-read your post. Sorry to hear you had to get our of your Cayenne so soon - depreciation is brutal for Porsche SUV's. A while back, I was trying to get a client out of his Cayenne Platinum - like you, he owned it for about a year. His car had a GPS problem that started right after he took it to the dealer for service. They loaded new software and his GPS would show that he was in the middle of the mountain (where there aren't any roads). The dealer couldn't get it to work properly and my client decided to get rid of the car. It's a shame, because the Platinum model is a really nicely optioned Cayenne.

autobroker

· #88 · Dec 1, 2021

Del said:
We stay with our Alfas, except for the garage queen Chevy SS (did just take it on a nice drive out of state for the holidays though, drove well, easily pacing pretty much anything else on the road, 414 hp making passing pretty easy.

In this area around Seattle and Bellevue, we see a ton of Teslas, mostly because of all the tech workers here. I have driven the old roadster, and ridden in a brand new S, but do not ever plan on buying any of the Tesla models because of the really screwy dash arrangement, with just a big tv screen in the middle which controls pretty much everything. Esp the model 3. Do not like that arrangement at all. And, they say the new big Teslas are even worse, with zero knobs and buttons for even the simplest tasks and functions. Sorry, does not work for me, too distracting and techy.

And, regardless of what our Aussie friends and others think of the Brera (returning to the subject of these postings), I kinda like the looks, having seen one in real life. Maybe the engine is not Alfa based, but really, these days, the engines in the new Giulias are nothing to look at, or hear, or appreciate as an "Alfa" engine. Those days are gone, and within a very few years, they will be electric anyway.

Lol, one nephew does have an electric Fiat 500e. they really llike it for messing around town. Works just fine for going shopping, etc. They are pretty inexpensive now, picking theirs up for $8000, used with several k miles on it.

A few months ago, I was at the auction and a bunch of Fiat 500e's ran down the lane. Many without a bid and the ones that sold were in the $5K range for a low mileage 2-3 year old car. I was tempted to buy one, but knowing me, I'd be in a hurry one day and the night before, I would've forgot to charge it.

autobroker

· #89 · Dec 1, 2021

PSk said:
This is 100% untrue. Holden designed this engine from scratch. Has nothing to do with the Busso Alfa engine. Heck it would all over GM and Holden advertisements if even remotely true

The things people will invent to make themselves feel better
Pete

I thought it sounded like a made up story. I know the older Chevy V-6 was actually a small block V-8 with two cylinders chopped off (229 CI V-6). By the way, that motor was a turd!

I did have a 4.1L V-6 in my 2007 GMC Sierra 1500. Gutless motor that drank gas! I think it's a punched out version of the 229 CI motor.

autobroker

· #90 · Dec 1, 2021

alfettaparts2 said:
I have posted this before but its worth another shot because its just so good. Wait for the guest appearance from Peter Griffin.

Fantastic! Those guys are awesome drivers and very brave to be driving those tiny cars like that! Thanks for sharing!

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autobroker

· #91 · Dec 1, 2021

Aggie57 said:
They handled in a way that their simple design and suspension layout had no right to do. Just sublime, loved to rev and could go round the outside of many supposedly more exotic and more powerful cars. The Angeles Crest Highway is made for them...if only!

I took a completely stock 2001 Honda Civic EX sedan through Angeles Crest, then Angeles Forest about a year ago. Front wheel drive - check. 1.7L 127 hp motor - check. Automatic transmission - check. 185 width all season tires - check. You'd think it was the wrong car for those twisties, but that car amazed me. Pick the right line and the front wheels pull you through the corner. Gotta keep momentum up, because that motor doesn't have a lot of power until the VTEC kicks in. It had me laughing as I ripped through to Palmdale! I let the motor and entire car cool down a bit, then had a fantastic drive back. And yes, this was done at night, so there wasn't much traffic.

True story, I owned a 2008 Chrysler Sebring convertible with a 2.4L 4 banger and automatic. I would drive Angles Crest/Angeles Forest as my cut through to get to Lancaster. I'd work until late at night, then come back home - my choice was to take Angeles Forest/Angeles Crest. That little Sebring surprised me! I'd have the top down and a bunch or tools and supplies in the trunk and rear seat. I'd rip through the canyon in that big Chrysler. I think having a 4 banger helped (lower weight in front) and I learned to keep momentum as I flew around the corners. I've caught Corvettes, Porsches and BMWs on that run. My Chrsler was a junker - dents all over and cracked lights both front and back. I can only imagine what those drivers thought when they pulled to the side to let me pass, then saw the piece of junk I was driving! Anyway, I had a lot of fun on that road!

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autobroker

· #92 · Dec 1, 2021

Del said:
Lol, the first 164S had shocking front tire wear until Alfa finally backed off the massive toe out in their specs.

"Its just that they are, well like your Chevy"

Lol, nothing wrong with our own Chevy. Body is still tight after 6 years, 52k miles, nicely built/finished, handles most roads basically as well as (and blows the door handles off of) any Alfa except the Giulia Quad. Granted, it is somewhat of a gas hog (best seems to be ~24 mpg but can be much worse if one jumps on it), and I dislike the automatic tranny, and all the overly complicated infotainment electronics. Of course, it was a low production higher tech version, I'll give you that. We use it for high speed long distance touring, something most Alfas are generally not used for.

And, BTW, Chevy does produce the Corvette, an excellent and much more affordable super performing uber sports car. Have to give them that.

So, still, I tend to contend that you all are not that familiar with many of the newer cars coming out of the American manufacturers; but again, I wander in our discussion on the Brera, evidently a fake Alfa, lol. Someone will buy it I'm sure.

Many years ago, I had a 5.7L and 6.0L Pontiac GTO at my office. Of course, I had to take the cars around the block! The 5.7 was fun, but the 6.0 was a monster. The 5.7 was an auto, but the 6.0 was a manual, which I really liked! The funny thing is at less than 1/2 throttle, the back end would go sideways - I didn't dare push it more than that. If I owned one, I wouldn't have a drivers license! They're just too much fun!

Reactions: 1

canguro

· #93 · Dec 1, 2021

autobroker said:
I see cars differently than others do. I've brokered thousands upon thousands of vehicles and there are things that I feel are very important for a daily driver. I'm also an engineer by education, so I appreciate excellence in engineering. Here's my take on the Tesla Model 3:

Pros: When they were $35K, it was a decent price. When there were tax credits, it made more sense financially. Great acceleration. Pretty good handling for such a heavy car. Cool technology. Saves on gas. Good for people who want to be good to the environment. Made in the US by a US company. Great on crash tests. Low center of gravity. Low cost to maintain. Most software updates done wireless. Cool autopilot. Seems pretty theftproof. Should run for a long time. Range is good for an EV. Electronics are very well made - probably the best in the auto industry. Holding value very well.

Cons: Fit an finish are poor. Creaks and rattles. Ride quality - makes me a bit queasy every time I drive one or am a passenger too long. Paint is inconsistent. Less torsional rigidity than a Camry or Accord (not even close). Much of the engineering (vehicle, not electronics) is old technology. Repair costs are very high. Body shops can't get parts. Long lead time to get repaired whether in an accident or mechanical repair. When the car gets old, who can work on it? Tight back seat. Interior is so-so for a $50K car. Odd single screen vs dashboard. There will be a time when you run out of electricity. Can't be jumped - must be towed or a generator be brought to the car. Makes a cross country trip a lot longer and more stressful. What do you do when there's a rolling blackout? Known to catch on fire and when it does, it's very, very hard to put out. Battery becomes less efficient as it ages. Huge cost when the battery goes bad. Becomes outdated very fast (technology moving quickly). Odd seat material.

To me, the cons are unacceptable for a modern vehicle, but again, I see things different than others do. When I see a $50K sedan, I expect it to be an entry level luxury vehicle. BMW, Mercedes, Audi, Alfa, Lexus, Infiniti - they all have good fit and finish, good performance, consistent and high quality paint, nice interior materials and are very safe. For Tesla buyers, I believe they sacrifice on some things to get the technology - or some have lengthy commutes (time wise) and they can save a bunch on fuel costs ... or some are doing it for the green aspect. Either way, everyone has the right to choose what they like and how they spend their money. As long as it doesn't affect me, I'm okay with it.

autobroker said:
Shoot, I just re-read your post. Sorry to hear you had to get our of your Cayenne so soon - depreciation is brutal for Porsche SUV's. A while back, I was trying to get a client out of his Cayenne Platinum - like you, he owned it for about a year. His car had a GPS problem that started right after he took it to the dealer for service. They loaded new software and his GPS would show that he was in the middle of the mountain (where there aren't any roads). The dealer couldn't get it to work properly and my client decided to get rid of the car. It's a shame, because the Platinum model is a really nicely optioned Cayenne.

It's funny you mention the non-functional GPS in the new model Cayenne because I got lost for about 30 minutes one night near Palm Desert when I went off-road to take a "short cut" and the NAV went off into the Pacific. I loved that truck (Porschephiles go nuts when I call it that), as well as the Macan that preceded it, but it undermined my green creds so it had to go.

Teslas are surely not perfect by any measure. Owners complain about service, quality and fit & finish issues all the time over at the Tesla Motors Club forum. Mine came with a misaligned hood, but they fixed it quickly, and I've had no other issues. You're paying for the technology, so folks just grin and bear that aspect of Tesla ownership. Then again, the company has only been mass producing cars for 10 years (the limited production Roadster doesn't count)! EV technology evolves quickly, but the established brands are at least several years behind with the software, so my Model 3 should remain fresh for a while. In fact, the wireless updates have improved both the acceleration time AND travel range since I bought it. Neat trick!

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planetmojo2

· #94 · Dec 1, 2021

I too like the styling on the Brea. But many of us put our love of new ALFAs on-hold once Fiat had converted them to FWD. Recently I was offered a ride and a chance to drive a new Stelvio. I was properly impressed with this RWD model. My love is back now. I have a GTV6 as my fun ride and a Chevy S-10 Blazer 4X4 for more practical tasks and winter duty. My choice on the Blazer was to root for the home team on vehicles that matched my needs in that category. Not really a US equivalent to a GTV6, so the 'home team' issue didn't apply. OK... maybe a Camaro, Mustang, or the transaxle Corvette come close. But, the price difference on new US models vs a used GTV6 helped my decision.

Last note on EVs-- These are sometimes half-jokingly referred to as 'coal powered cars'. The electricity required to charge them comes from a power plant somewhere out there.

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Del

· #95 · Dec 1, 2021

Not all FWD is bad. The 164 is rather good, based on my decades of driving various Alfas. Works pretty well. Lol, my original Cooper S Mini could outhandle anything. Lots of autocross trophies.

More than a few here in the US charge their EVs via the sun.

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PSk

· #96 · Dec 1, 2021

Yeah 156v6 was a great car to drive, and that was FWD

Pete

planetmojo2

· #97 · Dec 1, 2021

ALFA probably took their time to tune the handling on their FWD models. My very first car was an 850 Austin Mini (not a Cooper S, tho). I admit they carved the corners rather nicely. FWD, for the most part, is for the benefit of the car manufacturer, vs a fussy driver. Only so much HP you can ask of the front wheels that have to steer also. But the average driver wouldn't notice the difference. What ever driving skills I might posses were honed for RWD. Each one requires a different set of skills and inputs.

Whenever I am backed into a corner on the FWD vs RWD question... I have to reluctantly resort to this argument:
All NASCAR racers are born as FWD models when on the showroom floor. Chevy, Ford, Dodge, Toyota. The builders chuck everything FWD and turn it into RWD for the race track. Must be some major benefits for them to start from scratch.

I had a love affair with my 1966 Olds Toronado years back. First modern US car with FWD. Maybe the 1936 Cord 812 was the actual first here. None in between as I recall. Wasn't intended for carving corners on mountain roads, of course. But as a land yacht, it was gorgeous and an engineering triumph.

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Craig_m67

· #98 · Dec 1, 2021

planetmojo2 said:
ALFA probably took their time to tune the handling on their FWD models.

Probably ?
You couldn’t be more wrong.

Their very first effort was the Sud, a car that runs rings around any of the competition from the period (and later in some cases). If you’ve ever driven one (stock) you will understand just how perfectly balanced they are out of the box.

I can’t think of any FWD Alfa that wasn’t on point. Handling was always dialled in. The last Giulietta QV has shed loads of power/torque. Admittedly, the US never got these variants.

Back to the Brera, with the ”correct” engine (2.4JTD or 1750tbi) and tweaked suspension (like any cruiser) it’s not only beautiful but can hustle. Turns heads today like most any Alfa from any period.

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Del

· #99 · Dec 1, 2021

My 67 Cooper S ended up with 125 hp courtesy of Downton Engr in Salisbury, England, and that amount of hp didn't seem to make a difference in handling. It just went a whole lot faster.

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PSk

· #100 · Dec 2, 2021

The original Mini was probably one of the best handling road cars ever. I used to believe that I would get through any corner no matter how fast I entered it

Pete

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