Alfa Romeo Forums banner

1 - 20 of 35 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
11 Posts
Discussion Starter #1
Hi there

This is my first post, so let me introduce myself quickly: I am a student from Switzerland, so my english is not that good. I am a car enthusiast, as is my father. I am especially interested in Italian classic cars in the era from 1950 - 1970.

My dad bought a 63' Lancia Flavia Pininfarina Coupé 2 years ago. The car had only one preowner and is all original. It was in need of some small work and now it runs very well.

Now to my question: In the last years I saved some money and now of course I would like to spend it on a classic car. Since my father and I are capable of doing a lot of things by ourselves, I am looking for a project. A car that lately got my attention is the Lancia Flaminia GT Coupé from Touring.

So I searched the internet for a good one and found one at Joop Stolze Classic Cars in Holland









The asking price is at 18k €. Since the owner the car runs.

I could afford this one without any problems.

What do you think of this car? Is it worth the money or is there any particular reason not to buy this one? Are there any other Flaminia GTs I should consider?

Thanks in advance.

Regards

scalibudali
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
830 Posts
Hi there

This is my first post, so let me introduce myself quickly: I am a student from Switzerland, so my english is not that good. I am a car enthusiast, as is my father. I am especially interested in Italian classic cars in the era from 1950 - 1970.

My dad bought a 63' Lancia Flavia Pininfarina Coupé 2 years ago. The car had only one preowner and is all original. It was in need of some small work and now it runs very well.

Now to my question: In the last years I saved some money and now of course I would like to spend it on a classic car. Since my father and I are capable of doing a lot of things by ourselves, I am looking for a project. A car that lately got my attention is the Lancia Flaminia GT Coupé from Touring.

So I searched the internet for a good one and found one at Joop Stolze Classic Cars in Holland









The asking price is at 18k €. Since the owner the car runs.

I could afford this one without any problems.

What do you think of this car? Is it worth the money or is there any particular reason not to buy this one? Are there any other Flaminia GTs I should consider?

Thanks in advance.

Regards

scalibudali
Welcome to the Lancia world, I personally have a few, I see you like the v6 power cars, also there are beautiful 4 cylinders, but I recommend from 1.6 to 2.0 liter I personally never owned a Flaminia, but I have many friends that do. In my case I like to own more than one, but if you are only interested in one then you can afford a Flaminia. The cost to restore a flaminia is little $ high compare to Flavia Coupe. Or Fulvia Coupe S1,S2,S3. if you really go for the Flaminia make sure that mechanical is in top shape, engine, brakes, suspension, everything else can be easier to to deal. Is this the actual car you want to buy. by the way here are some comparasions
1964 Lancia Flaminia Coupé for sale: Anamera
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,569 Posts
Welcome,

Most and foremost, I would do some soul searching and determine:
  • What do you want to get out of this? Learning about cars, getting a cool ride, spend years restoring a car? Searching for rare items? etc.
  • What type of jobs you consider you would want to do and you could do - And, even more importantly, what jobs you plan on outsourcing to specialists
I can tell you that a Touring Flaiminia at Euro 18k needs certainly everything: Body, mechanicals and interior. A super nice car might cost Euro 50k. And if you cannot do body, mechanicals and interior yourself, you will likely spend many, many Euros and Swiss Franks more than the car will be worth.

As much as I love Flaminias, especially the Touring bodied GTs, the mechanics are highly complex and parts are very expensive. From experience, think Ferrari rather than Alfa Romeo budget.

The body is hand built in aluminium. And the Flaminia platform highly intricate. Any body work involved will be extremely difficult and only highly skilled experts are recommended.

Interiors should be rather straight forward - So this might be the easiest part.

If you are very skilled and know these cars, or have a substantial budget to pay for a restoration, by all means, go for it, especially since you have one in the family. If you are not, I might consider a different, slightly easier car to restore within your budget and capabilities. As Adan pointed out, if it has to be Lancia, A Fulvia and perhaps an Appia might work. Any Giulietta/ Giulia Alfa might also be a safer bet.

I also recommend to talk to the people that cherish the cars you are looking for. Your Dad to start with. Also, the Lancia Club in Switzerland is first-rate and an expert on Flaminias is Urs Göldi, close to Zürich. He is (At least was) the technical director of the Swiss Lancia Club. I recommend to call him up for his opinion.

Mike
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
11 Posts
Discussion Starter #4
First of all thank you for your advice.

What do you want to get out of this? Learning about cars, getting a cool ride, spend years restoring a car? Searching for rare items? etc.
I just want to invest my money reasonable. I am young and it would be my first classic car and I definitley want to learn something about those classic Lancias. The length of this restoration is secondary to me, it doesn't matter if I spend years on the restoration. I want to spend my leisure time meaningful and a classic car project seems the right thing for me.

As much as I love Flaminias, especially the Touring bodied GTs, the mechanics are highly complex and parts are very expensive. From experience, think Ferrari rather than Alfa Romeo budget.
When I thought about restoring a classic car, I thought that if I restore one, it should be worth the money of the restoration. Thats why I thought to buy a Flaminia GT and not a Fulvia or an Appia.
But I didn't know that a Flaminia-restoration is so much more expensive then a Fulvia-restoration.
But as you said it is stupid to spend 50k on the restoration, when you can buy a perfect one for that money.

A close friend of our familiy is a very experienced car mechanic. I don't want to overrate myself or my dad but I think apart from body work and a new painting I could do the other works with help from my friends or my familily.

But when I really have to think Ferrari budget, is it even possible to restore a Flaminia GT in this condition without a "loss"?

Thank you very much. You guys in this forum are very nice.

I hope you get my points, sometimes I do have trouble to express myself in english.

Regards
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
9,556 Posts
Your English seems to be pretty good -- or at least good enough to get your point across.

I think the only cars where a restoration may pay off and therefore can be considered an investment are cars that are worth $0.75 million or more -- largely because a decent professional restoration costs $150-200k at the low end. And this assumes good parts availability. When you need to fabricate worn, broken or missing parts, costs will escalate very quickly. If Stolze's Flaminia would be a good project for a commercial restoration, it would have been done already. When you consider doing a restoration, you may want to keep the following points in mind:

1. Budget. In my opinion, you cannot do a proper restoration on a budget. The car will need whatever it needs and whenever it needs it, and that is usually A LOT MORE than even professionals with a lot of experience can predict. Example: How much bodywork is needed? You can only tell when the car is stripped.

2. Time. It will take a lot longer than you think, and that will be reflected in costs. You will need space 3-5 times the footprint of the car to work on it and twice the amount to store the parts you took of the car and that may be in various stages of restoration. Typically, you'll have to rent such space and that really starts to bite once you figure out that a 3-year project becomes a 10-year project. Be clear as to whether or not you will add these costs to the value of the car (it's hard enough to break even on direct costs, but if you add these indirect costs you will almost certainly end up under water).

3. Knowledge. Do you have sufficient knowledge and expertise about the car model to understand what the difference between early and late models and all the variations in between that club concours judges might be able to identify as being incorrect? This is different from the restorations skills and relates entirely to the car model.

My suggestion to you would be: Don't even think about a restoration unless you're totally in love with a specific car model. And, in order to be in love, don't base it on looks or value. Go out an research the cars, talk to owners and see that they take you on a ride and hopefully at some point even let you drive the car. This research may take 2-3 years, but then you'll have some pretty good relationships within the model-specific community and some people may point you to good cars that are not officially on the market (as has happened to me), and you'll probably have a pretty good idea about how hard or easy is is to get certain parts, and what the sources for parts and services are. Then, and only then make a decision.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,138 Posts
I am in the last stages of my Flaminia GTL restoration (I hope to start a new thread that shows the restoration in a few weeks), and my car looked far worse in pictures than this one does, I was stupid and bought it without having seen it before, but I was very lucky, my car was in extremely good shape mechanically and everything was there (much like the silver car in the photos). I believe I paid about the same amount of money, but I believe my cost of restoration will be closer to US$25 K, and it has included a bare metal (windows out) repaint with a color change, buying a few missing parts (really expensive, I was quoted EUR 4,000 for a set of NOS taillights recently), new carpets (seats were good), and a comprehensive engine and mechanical service, easy stuff. I chromes most of the brightwork, and that is about it.

Here is a link to a thread of pictures of the Flaminia when I bought it http://www.alfabb.com/bb/forums/other-italian-cars/169900-update-my-new-flaminia.html

What I'm trying to say is that the cost of restoration will have to do with how good the car is to start with, and how much work you can do yourself. I did little work myself, but I am in Mexico where labor is cheap (and parts more expensive, since you have to import them and pay taxes).

I think Flaminias are great cars, that will continue to appreciate (think Aurelia money in 20 years), but they are VERY complex, they are in my opinion over-engineered and if the mechanicals are not right, it can be a pain and very expensive.

They are also very elegant. I say if you like it and the car looks like a good base, go for it, but do take the time to go look at it yourself.

Good luck
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
11 Posts
Discussion Starter #7
Thank you for your answers.

I am going to overthink this project.

Just one question: Do you think the car would be worth 18k €? It seems like it is one of the first series with an 2.5 liter engine and without the 3C.

Is the price ok or is the car overpriced? I'd just like to hear some opinions.

Regards
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,966 Posts
Thank you for your answers.

I am going to overthink this project.

Just one question: Do you think the car would be worth 18k €? It seems like it is one of the first series with an 2.5 liter engine and without the 3C.

Is the price ok or is the car overpriced? I'd just like to hear some opinions.

Regards
I can only judge from the photos, which is always dangerous. But if it's structurally sound, without rust in the sills, and the engine is running, I'd say the asking price is reasonable (though I'd still want to negotiate a little).
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
11 Posts
Discussion Starter #9
Does anyone know if the hole to the right of the tank cover (4th picture in my first post) is original?

I've never seen another model with it.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
272 Posts
welcome to the forum.
There is a lancia forum as well, I believe it's the Lancisti Community - Articles (Ed knows) where you can find a lot of people with knowledge.
I do know that this Flaminia Touring has the 'Superleggera' body construction, I believe aluminum panels over thin steel tubes. This is a very intricate part of the car and will need careful examination before you start talking about the price.
Also mileage, number of owners, provenance, drivetrain condition, paperwork, etc but those are obviously the standard things to check.
I do agree with Henry, these cars will appreciate, so if you can find one for a good price and you can do most of the work yourself, then go for it ! Good luck,
Philip
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
2,078 Posts
That hole looks to me like a rear fender light missing a red lens, as required by USA's DOT/EPA regulations. If that's what it is - then the car must have spent some time here in the USA, and maybe was officially imported sometime between 1969 - 1979(?). Just a guess...
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
2,078 Posts
Yep - that's what it is. I looked on the website and here's a photo of the other side, showing the light with red lens.
You'll also notice that the tail lights are all red (no amber turn signals in the top portion) and the reflector is mounted between the halves of the taillights. European delivery models would have the amber lens and reflector mounted next to the taillights.
EDIT: I can't really tell - but I wonder if the speedometer is in MPH?
 

Attachments

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,875 Posts
140 km/h is about 87 MPH. Most likely, it's showing MPH.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
137 Posts
Interesting discussion, and you've gotten some good feedback. Having grown up around Flaminias, they hold a soft spot in the heart for their driveability and solid engineering. Over the years I moved to Aurelias because they can support the restoration costs better (with their higher value) and also because they are a bit more "pure" than the Flaminia. Flaminias are a bit easier to work on than Aurelias, more robust and better higher speed cruisers and quite comfortable. But they are more or less just as costly to fix, so that any big money put into a Flaminia will not come back at the other end.

The best way to get a Flaminia is to hunt for a really good one. They are charming, just wonderful examples of real good cars and a good one is captivating. For about what this one cost, you should be able to find a sedan or a PF coupe in better shape, which will give you real pleasure sooner.

Steer away from restoration of a Flaminia unless you have a clear sense of how much it will take, your own standards, and some deep pockets.

The earlier advice is right - Flavias and Fulvias have their charms too. For the driveability of a Flavia is as charming as a Flaminia, and Fulvia is special too. If you are looking for older charm, consider an Appia. They are remarkable cars and a good alternative place to start. A s. 2 Appia sedan, while not a speed rocket, will put a smile on the face every time. Robust, well engineered and full of build quality, they have all those Lancia qualities and will run practically forever needing very little.

Geoff
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,569 Posts
Good call on the PF coupe, Geoff. For Euro 18k, you should be able to find a decent one and, in my humble opinion, the PF coupes are the most underrated of all Flaminias and the most enjoyable driver.

Mike
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
11 Posts
Discussion Starter #18
I did already think about getting a PF coupe. I like those cars very much, although I like the Touring bodied GTs better.

But the main reason I search a GT not a PF, is that I want to restore a car. I really wanna work on the car and learn something about restoring cars.

So the GT seems the better way to do so in my eyes.

But like I said the PF coupe is a lovely car.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,569 Posts
This one (At least in the pictures) tickles all the right boxes for me: Older restoration in above average condition so you really have fun driving it. Unbeatable color combination. a late 2.8 engine. Euro model. In very fine fettle in the pictures (High hopes for a positive PPI?).

1967 Lancia Flaminia GT Touring SUPERLEGGERA for sale: Anamera

They are stunning and undervalued. How can people think that the Alfa 2000/ 2600 look better?:)

Mike
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,138 Posts
They are stunning and undervalued. How can people think that the Alfa 2000/ 2600 look better?:)

Mike
While the Flaminia IS indeed stunning, and the GT looks much better than the 2000/2600 Sprint Alfas (Bertone), I believe that the Touring 2000/2600 Alfas look better than the convertible Flaminia. IMHO :)
 
1 - 20 of 35 Posts
Top