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Hello

Some of you might know me, some don't.
I' m the guy in Germany who is trying to keep his Spica running.

I always had problems to cope with my friends driving around with the carburretor engines. So this winter I decided to do something about it.
I did put in a few questions on this board, got a lot of answers, read alot and finally contacted Wes Ingram what to do.

First of all I would like to say thank you to Wes for his support and his suggestions. All I did was just simply doing what he wrote me to do. I'm writing this with his permission as well.
Second a big thank you to Papayam who supplied a lot of literature especially about camshafts and to Roadtrip for all that he has written for us so far.

My engine is a stock 2 Liter engine from 1974 except for the following things:

Newly rebuild FI pump by Wes Ingram ( Stock)
Bigger Throttle bodies by Wes Ingram
New l-jet tronic Bosch fuel pump Bosch number: 0580464013 ( plus following the whole procedure John has written in his Fuel diagnostic guide )
Spark Plugs NGK BP7ES ( lots of high speed driving on the German Autobahn)


The target was to get somehow near to the performance Alfa Romeo said the car was supposed to have. As we all know there is no stock Alfa Romeo at least at that time with the horsepower standing in the manuals.
Second I didn`t want to spent much money. I actually spent money only for the valve shims and for the dyno to verify the result.

Kompression of the engine between 12,1 bar and 12,5 bar
gives you 169,4 PSI - 175 PSI ( 1 Bar = 14 PSI )

So that is what I did:

I did set ignition maximum timing to 38 degrees.
- I did it with 5000 RPM but there is no further advance at 4000RPM. Listen for pinging at low engine speed with WOT (wide open throttle).

I did verify WOT at the butterflys.
-Use a mirror and center the plates in the throttle bores with the throttle stop screw on the manifold. Have a helper hold the accelerator to the floor. Remove the stop under the pedal if necessary and take out the slack in the throttle cable at the firewall. Loosen the throttle stop at the firewall (unscrew it to allow more stroke). Leave about 2mm slack in the cable.


I did set the intake cam to 102 degree. Exhaust already had the 102 degrees.
- This one is fairly easy I did use the Shankle Camshaft Timing Template. - Originall intake timing is 114°. You find the templates here on the board - somewhere, or you find them on the homepage of centerline somewhere.
- as you see I left the original camshafts in the car. I was thinking about changing - to the desired 105.48.03.200.01 but Wes said with them I would only get - an additional 3 - 5 HP. So I left the original 105.20.03.200.00 in the engine.

I did advance the FI-pump by one tooth.
- This is described in Wes Ingram`s manual.

I did reset the fuel mixture to 1,75 % CO at 2800 RPM.
- Readings were:
- on 2800 Rpm

CO 1,75
CO2 13,8
HC 58

- on idle at 750 RPM

Co 1,90
CO2 12,3
HC 870

- HC on idle is a bit high, I will have to do some more work to get the - throttleplates really closed.

I did reduce valve clearance to .014 on intake and to .016 on exhaust ( or .35mm in and .40mm out) this is not as much as Wes Ingram suggested but I think thats enough for starters. Wes did suggest .12 intake and exhaust .14 .

I did about 7500 Km or 4660 miles with these settings . No problems, and an average of 27 miles per gallon.And the Alfa driven like an Alfa is supposed to be driven.

Last weekend I went to a dyno (?) to verify the results I already felt. The car is performing really good. One of my friends said to me:" Good that you finally installed carburretors in the car", which I didn`t. I could cope with the others easily.

I attached two graphs, but they are of corse in German so the basic achievements:

As for the Horsepower achieved:
It is : 88,7 Kilowatt or 121 HP or 119,4 BHP

The maximum torque is :
179 Nm at 4000 Reffs. Fascinating fact the torque stays always above 170 Nm on the range between 2500 reffs and 5000 reffs.
1 Newton Meter equalizes 0.737562 lbf ft ( poundforce feet )
That will make if my calculator is not lying: 179 Nm 132,02359 lbf ft

Motorleistung = enginepower
Diagram shows the actual horsepower( Red line ) in KW it gives me 88,7 KW on 5030 reffs. Blue line is the loss of power at the wheel which is I think a bit to high with 14,5 KW or 19,8 HP. ( Any ideas for that one?)

Drehmoment = torque

Shows the actual torque ( blue line ) Nm.
And the engine power ( red line )


I`m really satisfied with the achievements made.

Greetings from Germany

Bernhard
 

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Bernhard.....thank you for sharing this with us. It is a very nice summary of the work you did....I really appreciate it and will be using the same approach for my engine rebuild (except that I've got the 1750 engine). I too will be sending the FI pump to WES (I met him recently at the AROC convention) and what a true gentlemen he is, his shop is probably the only one in the world that I know of that I would entrust the SPICA pump rebuild to. Did you use an engine DYNO or Chassis dyno for the test?
 

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Discussion Starter #3
It was chassis dyno.

With a1750 you will most probably have another set of camshafts.
Just tell Wes want you want to do with your engine, and he will tell you how to do it. And he will rebuilt the pump eaxactly to these specs.


Greetings from Germany

Bernhardr
 

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Hello again

I did convert the graphs to your standard.
Unfortunately I was only able to do the upload as a PDF.
Maybe someone else can convert them and put them back in.

Greetings from Germany

Bernhard
 

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Update on more improvements

Hello again,

first of all I have to thank Wes Ingram for his great support and his knowledge to guide me through this.

I have done some more work on my engine last Winter.
I just come back from a dyno, so I can show you the results as well.

So what did I do since Post number 1 ?

Basically everything stayed the same and I will only write about the changes.

1 I did install the crane XR3000, but with same timing as above.
2. I did increase the sparkplug gap to 030 in
3. I used my original Marelli coil,, but without the restrictor
4.I did install the A16 camshafts from Wes Ingram.
( 10.2 mm lift X 240 degrees duration at 050in. lift.)
Same lobecenters and same valve clearance as above.
5. I did unsrew the Alt compensator by one turn.
The decel allows linear fuel increases/decreases. The Alt compensator allows very slight exponential changes. In other words if your idle mixture is good but you need a bit more fuel at the top end the decel will not help.But if you unscrew the Alt screw one turn it will not affect the idle noticably but will add fuel when you increase the throttle opening. The horiz lever in the pump rests at a higher point on the serrated lever which increases the stroke or travel to open the plungers. You can view the internal parts on this site: Ingram Enterprises Inc. - Fuel Injection Specialists go to the Spica page, bottom tech information offered by John Stewart.( Roadtrip )

6. I did set fuel mixture a bit richer then in the first post.
Readings were:
at 2800 rpm
Co 2,2%
CO2 13,25
HC 115

at 750
CO 2,7
CO2 11,55
HC 1550

HC at idle is to high. I have to do some work on the throttle plate again.
Attached you will fin two graphs . There you will see in comparison the results from last year simply called Spica2007 and the the results from this year called Spica 2008.

As you can see a good result with the horsepower, but I lost a bit of torque.
Wes did suggest to try increasing the fuel a little (1/4 turn on the decel) which may increase the max torque. This could lower the hp above 5500 though.I will try that later.

Greetings from Germany

Bernhard
 

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Once again nice hearing from you Bernhard. The work you're doing is great and much appreciated. I like the progress you're making on the engine. How many times are you driving the car weekly?
 

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bernhard, interesting stuff.

what does advancing the spica pump belt by 1 tooth do exactly? i haven't heard of doing this and i'm curious. did it make a noticeable difference? any info on that or links to more detail appreciated.

thanks, bob
 

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bernhard, interesting stuff.

what does advancing the spica pump belt by 1 tooth do exactly? i haven't heard of doing this and i'm curious. did it make a noticeable difference? any info on that or links to more detail appreciated.

thanks, bob
Hello Bob

sorry for answering that late, but I have been away for a while.

If you do make changes on your ignition timing and on the lobe centers like I did you have to do something about the timing of the injection as well.
Just changing the timing on the injection will not give you any benefits. It all has to work together.

With Wes Ingrams HP Pumps you can advance the pump timing even one more tooth. This is described in Wes book about the Spica.

But if you do have more specific questions feel free to ask.

Greetings from Germany

Bernhard
 

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Once again nice hearing from you Bernhard. The work you're doing is great and much appreciated. I like the progress you're making on the engine. How many times are you driving the car weekly?
Sorry for not answering your question.

I do drive my car about 5.500 miles a year, but it is not a daily driver.
I use the car basically for meetings with other Alfa people.

Greetings from Germany

Bernhard

Like this one . Last week in the Italian Alpes.
 

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Discussion Starter #12 (Edited)
Stage 3

Hello again,

first of all I have to thank Wes Ingram and Herb Sanborn for their great support.
Last year in summer I had the pleasure to travel with them from a Alfa Montreal meeting in Luxembourg, where they had a tech session ( I had to translate ) to Nürnberg.
We did have a lot of fun together, and we did of cause talk about the improvements I could still do with my engine.

So I have done some more work on my engine last Winter.
I just come back from a dyno, so I can show you the results as well.

So what did Wes and Herb suggest to do?
Basically I stayed with some of the things I already did :


1 I stayed with the installed XR3000, but limited max advance to 36.5°
2. I did increase the sparkplug gap to 030 in
3. I used my original Marelli coil,, but without the restrictor
4.I still use to the installed the A16 camshafts from Wes Ingram on exhaust.
( 10.2 mm lift X 240 degrees duration at 050in. lift.)
On the intake I installed the HP camshaft from Wes Ingram.
(11mm lift x 250 degrees of duration at .050 in. lift.)
5. I changed the valve seats on intake to 45° using a little bigger ( 1mm ) valve as well.
6. I used stronger valve springs
7. Porting on the intake for more torque starting with Wes Ingrams throttle bodies 40mm then going into the head 38 mm ending up at the valve with 35mm.
On exhaust just a basic porting to smoothen everything.
8. Alfetta Motronic pistons 10:1
9. Injection timing one tooth forwarded.
10. Valve clearance. 012 on intake and .014 on exhaust
11. Sent the pump to Wes Ingram for the necessary modifications.
12. I did set fuel mixture with an LC-1 to :
Readings are:
car standing :
at 700 RPM 11,76 – 12,22 AFR
at 2500 RPM 12,65 AFR
car running :
cruise at 3550 RPM 13,97 – 14,7 AFR
full throttle at 4000 RPM 11,02 – 11,76 AFR
This most probably a bit rich, but my LC-1 is out of order and I am waiting to get it back.
I will try with 12,5 –13,0 AFR under full load and look at the other numbers then.
13. I did install a “ fuel radiator “ in the fuel return line using an oil radiator from a motobike.


Attached you will find two graphs . There you will see in comparison the results from the last years .

As you can see a good result with the torque , but I’m not really happy with the horsepower.
Looks as if the engine is running out of air above 5000 RPM.
Wes meant that the road results will be better then on the dyno, because driving is forcing the air into the air filter housing thus giving the engine more air. I might try some modification with the air box as well. Any suggestions are really welcome.

Anyway I do have a lot of fun driving the car.

Greetings from Germany

Bernhard

I did attache some pictures as well.
 

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Spica Experience;

I thought it might be interesting for the readers to hear about my SPICA HP experience. I bought a 66 GT junior last year with a 2l SPICA drive train. I was very happy with my purchase because the car was very tight, had no rust, a nice interior and handled great. The performance was definitely lacking , though. After two weeks of driving it, I took it to Agile Automotive performance in Fallston, Md. To check it out on the Dyno. Much to my surprise, the car was making only 80 hp and the A/F ratio was 17! It appeared that the pump was sick. After trying to adjust it and talking to Wes Ingram, I decided to have the pump rebuilt. As is usually the case, I went for some “while you are at it” upgrades including an exhaust from Alfaholics, and the ported head and HP pump from Wes. Time to completion was supposed to be 3 months. 5 months later, we had the pump and the head back (Wes is very busy).

Wes had recommended having the slip casting hump machined out of the intake manifold. This would give the intake a true 40mm strait through. Richard Garre of Radcliffe Motors handled this as well as the installation of the pump and the head for me. Just to make things extra spiffy, I got a new distributor from 123 distributors.

When Richard first put the pump back on, he suspected something was wrong with it because the lever did not move smoothly. Sure enough, the car would not start. After consulting with Wes, the pump came back off and went back to Seattle. It returned quickly this time and was re-installed. Now the car would start but was much too rich to progress from idle. In fact, raw fuel was spitting out the intake ports. (these pumps have a lot of capacity!) Richard tried a number of things to lean it out, to no avail. The pump had to come off again, and go back to Seattle. Wes figured the pump must have been damaged in shipment and not all of the damage recognized with the first return. This time he tested it extensively and replaced the logic section.

Richard installed the pump again and this time it worked like a charm. Starting was with the first pop from the starter. The car ran smoothly and pulled to 7000 RPM. I picked it up 10 months after the project started, and went zooming around the county to 7000 RPM. (for those of you who think me irresponsible, I can only tell you that Wes told me it would be fine). Later that evening, in the middle of nowhere, the engine lurched, burped, and then quit. It would crank but would not start. After a long tow home, I was able to drive the car up the driveway. The next day, I had the exact same scenario, only a bit closer to home this time. This time, I had it towed to the shop. Richard reported the the rack on the pump was sticking occasionally and the 123 distributor had given up the ghost. I got the feeling I was relying on a Faberge egg to deliver my fuel.

Again the pump came off and went back to Seattle. Wes had been very helpful throughout, always responding to emails and offering helpful suggestions on the phone. I was feeling very sorry for Richard, though. He had not charged me for the last 2 pump installations because he wanted it to be right.

This time the pump came back and was back on the car. It worked, but not as well as the last time. Mainly, there was surging above 5000 RPM with full throttle. It didn’t happen with partial throttle. Wes thought it sounded like an ignition problem. I changed back to the old marelli distributor, tried a new coil (Pertronix Flamethrower 3 Ohm), then back to the old Marelli coil, new wires, etc. Nothing seemed to help. The problem did seem to become less frequent over time and has now disappeared. I hope it doesn’t come back because I have no idea what it was.

Finally, I took the car back to the dyno to see how this all worked out. My settings were as follows:

Ingram HP pump
Ingram Head and Cams
Alfaholics exhaust
NGK plugs
Marelli Distributor ( 8 degrees static advance, 38 max)
Marelli Coil

The car produced 124 WHP at 5800 RPM and 109 lb/feet of torque

The interesting thing is how wet the fuel air mixture is. On my best setting, it got as low as 10.5 and as high as 12.5. I could not lean the mixture any more because it was too lean at partial throttle at 3000 RPM. At this point it starts well, runs well, and pulls to 6500. The power is 16 HP higher at the wheels than my other 2l. Talking to Wes about the mixture readings and the fact that the mixture gets leaner at higher RPMs rather than richer as expected, he basically told me not to worry about it. There are a lot of things that can affect a number on a screen, but as long as it was smooth and the power good, it was basically fine.

In terms of feel, the car does not have the excellent "tip in" throttle response of my carburetted alfas, but it does have a broad power band and pulls like a freight train above 4000 RPM.

I think that my experience highlights both the promise and the problems inherent in this system. On the plus side, the car has good power and excellent drivability. On the other hand, there is only one expert on earth to turn to if a problem arises, and if you don’t quite have the right fuel curve for your particular setup, there isn’t anything you can do about it.

Ask me next year if I would do it again. If the car continues to work like it does now, the answer will probably be yes. If I have to jack with it again….
 

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bernhard

fantastic post...thanks for documenting and sharing.

my motor is similarly spec built a few years ago with Ingram pump and 11.9 and 11 cams... getting 132whp 123wtq when poorly tuned.

heres mine... http://www.alfabb.com/bb/forums/car-events/17144-dyno-video-results-2.html

btw contrary to the common consensus on this bb, i think all 3 of our motor would benefit with a quality set of headers. just make sure the headers runners flanges arent smaller than the exhaust ports. im itching to try a set down the road. looking at the chamfer around the combustion chambers in the you head i reckon you can deck it to pick up a half point more compression ratio?


mhunger

i reckon the lack of throttle response on mod spica motors are due to a lack of an accelerator pump found on most carb cars?

what spec ingram cams are your running?

thanks for posting


cheers

DB
 

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Wes Ingram

Wes plays the setup info a bit close to the chest. This is his performance head/pump package. the pump is an HP pump. The head has been ported and flowed with larger intake valves. The cams are also uprated, but I dont' know the exact specs. If anybody has them, please post.

BTW. I am jealous of your torque numbers. 20 ft lbs is a lot.
 

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Wes plays the setup info a bit close to the chest. This is his performance head/pump package. the pump is an HP pump.

But I do think this is quiet natural, because he is earning his living out of his knowledge

BTW. I am jealous of your torque numbers. 20 ft lbs is a lot.
If you meant my engine the most fantastic thing is that I will have this torque starting with 2250 RPM up to 5500 RPM. You can drive the car almost without changing gears.
Only trouble I still have that the engine will get overriched above 6000RPM.

Salutations from Germany

Bernhard
 

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Spica Injected cams

The cams used by Wes Ingram in the heads that I have redone, are listed in the link below. They are undre Delta, Megacycle # 9001, 9002,& 5005.
SOME RJR Camshaft Profiles / other cam profiles

These cams really are not that good as "torque making cams". You can ask owners as they are easily available. Dick Giambria is meniooned here and his was a more recent head than the one tested(his race head) and Bill Theobald who was using the same cams as Smestas, has his own thread. Good setup for built 2 liter motors

Actually the RJR 796 intake on the VVT intake and RJR590 exhaust will work excellently with the HP/ FI and give FAR MORE TORQUE & HP than the above cams for Street/Track Application, and pull from 2,000 RPM . For the Higher output pump the RJR221/776 will give high Torque/HP #s that racers are unused to

Remember it`s all about TORQUE!
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Richard Jemison
RJR Racing
RJR Racing specializes in Alfa Romeo Automobiles
"you don`t have to listen, but you won`t win the argument"!
"Nothing that I might suggest will be legal in California"
 

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richard

what would be a comprable spica cam you have to the ingram/delta 11.9mm in-11mm ex?

can you explain the RJR221/776 differences in the ramp angles and duration/lift specs?

any dyno charts of a spica motor with your cams? im thinking of building a street torque motor for my next go around?

is simon running a spica motor with your cams now?

thanks
 
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