[f512tr]

I have a question on suspension settings. When I got my S4 I found the stock suspension was impossibly stiff, so much so that the car would oversteer at the drop of a hat. In fact it was down right dangerous. Now I have a series of mid engine cars (two Ferraris at present) and I know a thing or two about how a car should handle, the Alfa felt horrible.

I talked with the guys at Alfaholics here in the UK who are very highly recommended and their opinion was that the S4 (at least the european version) was built with sucicidal handling so they developed a suspension kit of new springs, Konis, and a new front roll bar. They suggest removing the rear roll bar entirely and fitting a thicker front roll bar. New bushes as well all around. Because of the cost of the kit I have fit just the rear springs and rear Konis and it has made a big difference. The car still feels much to "stiff" and the scuttle shake is unreal.....I plan to eventually fit the front springs/Konis/rollbar (if I keep the car) but it leads me to wondering...

Is this a problem the US cars have? I realise that the USA has very few places with true handling roads compared to England where there is a roundabout every 5 feet, but do the USA cars understeer or oversteer? Even with the rear handling kit fitted my Alfa is VERY eager to turn in and many S4 owners over here have had their cars rear come around on a wet roundabout...

I haven't seen to many threads on suspension setups to improve the stock settings. I dont want to "low ride" the car or fit non stock wheels but the handling is a huge disappointment for an itailian car....even my Triumph Spitfire felt better in the corners. I am using and will use Koni Sports (yellow) which are adjustable....should they be set harder or softer? I am looking for neutral handling or slight understeer; as it stands the car is just to eager to turn in making it a bit iffy on our often rough and wet roads.....

I do know all the tricks for understeer/oversteer with tyre pressures ect; what I am wondering is where to start with the overall setup....has anyone else already fitted the full Alfaholics handling kit and will it make the car handle better, safer, and with less scuttle shake (as they claim)....

Thanks for your advice
Britt

 

[bianchi2]

as for the oversteer..on wet roads..that pretty much nomal...on my 84..s3 spider..i run 750 inch pound spring in the front and 125 inch pound in the rear..koni reds at all corners..the fronts are at 1/2 turn form soft right now, and the rear at full soft..i am going to put the fronts at full soft agian tuesday..juat don't like the way it feels right now..as for sway bars..stock front and rear..unbolted the rears a month ago..made the car 'messy ' to drive..so re-bolted the links back on..my rear bushing are all polly, trunnion. included.. and on the front just the castor arm bushing are polly.. so for how my car handles..i feels great at the moment..i can keep up with a 3 seires bmw, in tight twisty roads.. what kind of tires are you riding on? after a few years tire get kinda hard , and this will lead to oversteer..i have 205/50/16 wheels and tires on my car..fresh tires and it will oversteer on comand if i want it to..but when it rains.i must slow down, the rear end just slips around too much..but in the dry..sticks like glue..i can easly double a highway trans ramp( the kind where you go from one higway to another ) easy...,,,so keep the front and rear swaybars, do not go to high on the spring rates... a few of my freinds have dumped the 1200 inch springs on the front and went down to 750//850 pound springs,, make the car supple...and keep the rears around 125/145 pound springs..as for skuttle shake... that unfor. nomal.. overly stiff springs will make it worse..some of us have gone to getting a frame stiffener, so cure some of the shake.. have not tryed it myself yet..thinking about it thuo..hope this helps..

 

[John M]

Britt:

Its the other way around over here. Cars were setup to plow/understeer into the corners. First thing I would do would be to check the alignment. Stock specs require mild toe in. Sounds like you could have a bunch of postive castor, negative camber, toe out, or some combination of the three. The spiders do suffer from scuttle shake, but can be easily addressed with the addition of a chassis stiffener. Koni reds and springs will work nicely. And the konis are adjustable. Most run pretty stiff in the front, and pretty soft in the rear.

Why don't you give conedriver on the board a pm. He is quite knowledgeable when it comes to setting up a spider whether for track or street.

Best Regards,
John M

 

[msiert]

Stock S-4 suspension is stiff ????

I found the stock suspension as very soft and after the sport springs and shocks were installed it felt like it was on rails and not too stiff. I use to run Koni Reds but it was Max who recommended to go to Koni Yellow's to handle the overly stiff spings I had.

I also have the Alfaholic's 29 mm front sway bar, stock rear sway bar and frame stiffener.

The front springs are 1,200 lbs (Max recommended 800 lbs), rears springs 175 lbs, the rear shocks are set at full soft and the front shocks are 3/4 stiff.

Last Summer the Koni's were set at full stiff all the way around and I had understeering problems on the autox with the new setting it feels much better but has not been tested on the track yet.

Ohhh..........Frame stiffener does really help in getting ride of the crowl shake you get with the Spider.

 

[Gubi]

...even my Triumph Spitfire felt better in the corners.

I hope you're exaggerating, Britt, or something is *seriously* wrong with your car

 

[bianchi2]

...ahhh , the 'stinkbug' approch to handleing....

 

[GV27]

I didn't realize that the British models were so much different in the handling department from the U.S. models. I assume you've had it aligned, bushings checked, etc.? That's where I would start. That type of difference in suspension is news to me.

John, in general - all else being equal - a stiff front swaybar and soft rear will tend to induce understeer and vice-versa. It's a common misconception the stiff swaybars increase traction but they don't - rather they keep the "swing" to a minimum when changing directions. On rough surfaces a stiff swaybar will actually reduce traction by taking away the independence of the suspension. So I believe as far as balance is concerned the Alfaholics advice to Britt is correct.

On those Konis stiffening the fronts and softening the rears will take you to more of an understeer balance.

I realise that the USA has very few places with true handling roads

I'll take exception to that. Where I live there are hundreds of roads that'll make you dizzy and turn you white. Where an off doesn't result in hitting a curb but rather a 100ft drop into a creek.

Lookout Mountain near my house (you may have seen a car similar to this one before as well!):

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Chris

 

[John M]

Chris...you know you are right on that. I edited my previous post so as to eliminate confusion in the discussion. I did have it backwards.

Best Regards,
John M

 

[f512tr]

I found the stock suspension as very soft and after the sport springs and shocks were installed it felt like it was on rails and not too stiff. I use to run Koni Reds but it was Max who recommended to go to Koni Yellow's to handle the overly stiff spings I had.

I also have the Alfaholic's 29 mm front sway bar, stock rear sway bar and frame stiffener.

The front springs are 1,200 lbs (Max recommended 800 lbs), rears springs 175 lbs, the rear shocks are set at full soft and the front shocks are 3/4 stiff.

Last Summer the Koni's were set at full stiff all the way around and I had understeering problems on the autox with the new setting it feels much better but has not been tested on the track yet.

Ohhh..........Frame stiffener does really help in getting ride of the crowl shake you get with the Spider.

Thanks everyone for all the advice. The car is aligned and set up properly, the tyres are new; the problem is in how the original equipment was specified for the car. BTW I have a LHD Spider because they drive better than the RHD conversions that are here in the UK plus as an original American I prefer the LHD on my sports cars. I don't believe the setup for cars sold here in the UK was any different than anywhere else in Europe because Alfa never officially made a RHD spider, all of those sold by dealers were LHD anyway.

In regards to the frame stiffner, where do you get these? Are they easy to install or welded on? Do they affect the ground clearance?

Although Alfaholics suggests using their stiffer front roll bar and removing the rear completely are some of you saying to leave the stock rear on and just upgrade the front?

many thanks
Britt
PS- My Spitfire was my college car while at University of Florida, it was a 1975 and though the wheels really were bent in on the back it handled great, had no tyre wear problems, and was a fantastic college car. Taught me basic mechanics for the 7 years I owned it (covered 70k miles in those 7 years)

 

[tadslc]

As other's have said, something is wrong with your car or your description if you're getting that excessive of oversteer. I don't think I've ever dealt with an Alfa with excessive oversteer but my newest Spider was a 1986 although I drove my Dad's 1993 S4 a few times. It's almost against the laws of physics for a front engine car to have excessive oversteer.

I've dealt with Alfaholics in the past and they seem pretty knowledgeable about Alfa's. Take the car to them and let them drive it to see what you're talking about. I would feel confident of any recommendation they would have for a "fix".

Good Luck

 

[conedriver]

Hi Britt,

Here's a rambling response to your post: Someone already corrected John M regarding his backward comments for the effects of a stiffer front sway bar (it will promote understeer).

The commonly available bolt-on chassis stiffener really helps with S4 cowl shake. I have one on my '91 Spider. Which, by the way also exhibits oversteer. I changed to poly bushings for the rear trailing arms and trunion bushing, but may have left out one of the large side washers at the front of a trailing arm. This might allow the slight axle movement that tends to make the car "rear steer" similar to a loose trunion bushing. A loose trunion bushing is the classical cause of oversteer, and might also be the cause of your problem. If the trunion bushing is really loose, it can be detected by forcefully pushing the rear of the car sideways; if the body moves and the wheel/tire doesn't, the trunion bushing is loose.

I really need to chase down my problem (The car is just a daily driver, and most of my efforts are spent on the autocross Spider). Maybe my plan will be of use to you; I will get the car up on jackstands and push around with a crowbar to look for any looseness in the rear suspension. Assuming suspension bushings are sound, and the front end alignment is to specification, a quick way to change the sway bar setup is to disconnect one of the links at the rear trailing arm. Just wire it up so it won't foul anything, and you have the effect of no rear sway bar. If my car, and yours, still oversteers with the rear swaybar disconnected there is still something loose somewhere.

We have both already changed our cars from stock, which should affect handling even before disconnecting the rear sway bar. I have already installed a stiffer front swaybar (which should promote understeer - but didn't), and you have only fitted Alfaholics rear springs. Assuming these are stiffer than stock, this change should actually promote more oversteer which you are trying to reduce.

About that Spitfire; these things are dangerous...The Sports Car Club of America will not even allow "Swing Axle" cars (VW, early Spitfires & Corvairs) in autocross competition without a "Camber Compensator" spring, negative camber, or axle limiting straps (even for the Stock Class).

Britt:....Why don't you give conedriver on the board a pm. He is quite knowledgeable when it comes to setting up a spider whether for track or street.

Best Regards,
John M

 

[f512tr]

Hi Britt,



The commonly available bolt-on chassis stiffener really helps with S4 cowl shake. I have one on my '91 Spider.

should actually promote more oversteer which you are trying to reduce.

QUOTE]

Thank you for the reply. Where do you get this Chassis stiffener from? How is it installed? Is it heavy? (I ask because if I can only get it in the USA the shipping price will no doubt be very high)
Does it affect the ground clearance?

I don't recall it being on the websites of any of the 4 Alfa parts suppliers here in the UK but I could be completely wrong about this.....

Britt

 

[conedriver]

Hi Britt,

The original chassis stiffener was developed by Don Eriminus, one of the smaller U.S. Alfa parts suppliers. International Auto Parts and Centerline offer stiffeners, and their parts might actually be made by Eriminus. The front cross brace comes in versions for Spiders with standard exhaust, and with headers. The long bars fit under and inside the edges of the rocker panels, and are visible if you stoop down. I haven't noticed any ground clearance issues with the stiffener on my '91 spider. The stiffener mounts in the rear of the front wheel wells; using bolts that hold the adjustable steering lock brackets. It mounts at the rear at the pivot bolt locations for the front ends of the trailing arms. I don't know the weight but both suppliers have installation instructions, and they might list the weight. Or, if you begin an on-line order with your address, a shipping cost might pop up before you finalize the purchase.

Chassis Stiffener for Alfa Spider

Centerline Products: PS409 Spider Chassis Stiffener, cars with standard exhaust

The parts are shipped disassembled in a long box, and the thing really works. If you search the BB for "Chassis Stiffener", there are several threads on the topic. I believe one of my Alfa friends also has an extra one for sale.

Hi Britt,
The commonly available bolt-on chassis stiffener really helps with S4 cowl shake. I have one on my '91 Spider.
should actually promote more oversteer which you are trying to reduce.
QUOTE]

Thank you for the reply. Where do you get this Chassis stiffener from? How is it installed? Is it heavy? (I ask because if I can only get it in the USA the shipping price will no doubt be very high)
Does it affect the ground clearance?

I don't recall it being on the websites of any of the 4 Alfa parts suppliers here in the UK but I could be completely wrong about this.....

Britt

 

[f512tr]

The parts are shipped disassembled in a long box, and the thing really works. If you search the BB for "Chassis Stiffener", there are several threads on the topic. I believe one of my Alfa friends also has an extra one for sale.




Thanks very much for that. Looks like something to get in the summer when its driving weather again!

Britt

 

[wutdhec]

George, how easy is it to install this? I haven't done much work under a car but I'm somewhat mechanically inclined. If I decided to punt, how many hours of install time do you think a shop would charge?

Also, I heard that its weight may affect acceleration...did you notice anything?

Thanks.

 

[conedriver]

Hi Hector,

The thread comes to life again...

I installed the chassis stiffener on my '91 Spider with the help of a friend. We had some hole alignment problems, so the entire process took around 4 - 5 hours, with appropriate stops for adult malt beverages. You need to get the car up on sturdy jackstands. Make sure everything is secure since there is a degree of tugging and pushing involved, and you don't want the car falling off the stands.

One big issue; the rear of the chassis stiffener mounts with the same large bolts that attach the the rear trailing arms. It's probably best to have additional jackstands to support the axle / trailing arms when these bolts are removed. Do one side at a time.

George, how easy is it to install this? I haven't done much work under a car but I'm somewhat mechanically inclined. If I decided to punt, how many hours of install time do you think a shop would charge?

Also, I heard that its weight may affect acceleration...did you notice anything?

Thanks.

 

[conedriver]

Hi Hector,

The thread comes to life again...

I installed the chassis stiffener on my '91 Spider with the help of a friend. We had some hole alignment problems, so the entire process took around 4 - 5 hours, with appropriate stops for adult malt beverages. You need to get the car up on sturdy jackstands. Make sure everything is secure since there is a degree of tugging and pushing involved, and you don't want the car falling off the stands.

One big issue; the rear of the chassis stiffener mounts with the same large bolts that attach the the rear trailing arms. It's probably best to have additional jackstands to support the axle / trailing arms when these bolts are removed. Do one side at a time.

I didn't notice any detrimental affect on acceleration from the additional weight (by the seat of my pants method. It's probably there to some degree...)

George, how easy is it to install this? I haven't done much work under a car but I'm somewhat mechanically inclined. If I decided to punt, how many hours of install time do you think a shop would charge?

Also, I heard that its weight may affect acceleration...did you notice anything?

Thanks.

 

[Gubi]

Weight always affects acceleration. That being said, it's only 40 pounds or so. If you can tell the difference then your Butt Dyno works better than mine.

If you're really concerned about it you can offset it by adding some speed holes using the Homer method.

 

[wutdhec]

Gents, thanks for the insights...much appreciated.