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Discussion Starter #1
I got me some new 205/55-14 Hoosier R3S04's for this weekend Alfa Club event. What kind of pressures are you guys running on these tires. I haven't heard of people here on the BB using these tires, but thought I'd give it a shot.

 

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Anthony,

Even though I've not used them yet, there was mention of them in other threads, with pressure up around 42psi for a car weighing about 2000lbs, and 3 degree's of negative camber. I do believe Richard ran a set of these at a race earlier this year, perhaps he remembers his pressure settings.
 

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Its pretty easy. These tires run around 160-180 degrees F, so they end up gaining 6-8 psi during a run. Unless you are running nitrogen. The correct temps for a 2000 lbs car is 29-31 psi. DO NOT GO BELOW OR ABOVE. The best way is to run a tire temperature gauge that would make sure the temps were across. I run 3.5` of camber and the tire comes in even across the board at 30 psi.

Richard
 

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Anthony - I run the R3S03 on my Milano/75 and with 2.5 deg neg camber, I have to have them 30 psi cold. As Richard says, they typically run at 160-180F. This is on my 2,900lb car (I run 205/45/16 and 205/40/17).

They're very fast, and quite forgiving. But they end up scrubbing themselves off sooner than, say, Kumho Victoracer's or Toyo RA-1's.
 

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It's a shame efforts are duplicated on this forum and the AlfaRacingDigest. We discussed this a few months ago.

Anyways, with the same camber and pressure settings I chorded (on the shoulder) new 04's where 03's would have lasted twice as long. When I called Hoosier Tech they recommended as much as 5-6 pounds more air than the 03's. In addition they said the inside of the 04's should run 15-20 deg hotter (more camber). That's a change for me, the 03's were easier to set up. I started the 03's at 32 lbs and got 38 lbs hot. With the 04's I'm about 4 lbs more. Now that I'm running more camber (and hotter on the inside) I can probably reduce pressures a bit.

Strange, but what they said confirmed my experience. If you try to achieve even temps you risk chording at the shoulder.

Eliot
 

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Eliot, that's an interesting observation. When I first set up the 03's on my Milano, I corded the outside shoulder too. I simply added camber to help remove the scrubbing but from what you say, it's OK to run it at a lower pressure and stop trying to get even temps across the surface (as long as they're all within their working temp range)?
 

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Elliot wrote: "It's a shame efforts are duplicated on this forum and the AlfaRacingDigest"

Elliot...where is the alfa racing digest?

thanks.
 

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interesting question. i have heard a lot of different answers to this question this year. i was told the tires were bad on the second run, and to lower tire pressure. WRONG! i have consistently raised my pressures, aiming for hot temps in the range of 39+lbs for a 2000 lb car as hoosier suggests. (2206 lbs and b/s legal with me in it!) i am now running 33 front 32 rear 205/55-14 on 7 inch rims. this would be about right if you were expecting a 5-6lb increase. i know that richard runs the tires a lot hotter than i do on the track, and that is probably why his initial pressure is better lower than mine. i think that you need to monitor your presures before and after the run. and don't be afraid to try different pressures. and don't be afraid to try higher pressures. bob wass #85 alfa gtv.

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_____________________________________________
here is a thread i had with mike kramer at hoosier on the so4's:

Bob,
I'm not sure what you are looking for when you say "i was told they were bad
on the 2nd session". One of the most commonly reported benefits of the '04
tire is the consistency in the performance. The 205/55ZR14 size would work
the best on an 8" wide rim, but should be fine with a 7" rim. Putting it on
a 6" rim would be a handicap. The outside shoulder wear is an indication of
insufficient camber or low pressure.
You may want to have your pressure gauge calibrated to be sure you are using
the correct pressures.
Good luck in your efforts.
mk

-----Original Message-----
From: Bob Wass [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: Wednesday, June 23, 2004 1:49 PM
To: Mike Kraemer
Subject: RE: so4's in 206/60-14


mike-
thanks for the response.
its a 2.0L 1967 alfa romeo gtv and weighs 2206 lbs
with driver in it. my question relates to the 2nd session
on the so4's. i was told they were bad on the 2nd session.
running on 14x7" rims, which were a big improvement over 14x6's
with the 206/60-14's.

what kind of feedback have you gotten on so4?

i normally run 32-33 cold which gets to about 37-38 hot.
i assume it is better to be under than over on pressure?
don't have a pyrometer, yet. wear pattern is fine, no graining.
3.25 neg camber on front, but still more wear on outside of
tire than inside.

bob

-----Original Message-----
From: Mike Kraemer [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: Wednesday, June 23, 2004 11:27 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: RE: so4's in 206/60-14


Hi Bob,
I can't be sure about the production date for 205/60-14R3S04 tires. They
don't yet show on our production schedule and that is looking out at least 6
weeks.
It is difficult to assess your tire setup. What kind of car are you running?
What were the tire temperatures? Can you see a wear pattern or unusual
graining on the tread?
I tend to agree that dropping the pressure was the wrong direction. Usually
when tires get a "greasy" feel it is because they are overheated. Lowering
the pressures would only create more heat.
Hope some of this helps you. Thanks for running on Hoosier.
mk
-----Original Message-----
From: Bob Wass [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: Wednesday, June 23, 2004 9:39 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: RE: so4's in 206/60-14



also-

the so4's i got in 205-55/14 seemed to get
very slippery on the second session. these are 30 minute sessions
at california speedway using both the oval and infield course, just
under 3 miles avg speed ~ 83mph.

i was advised to drop the pressure from the 33psi cold i ran in the
1st session, to 27psi, which i did. i think that was a mistake. what
feedback
have you gotten on the so4 compound?

i had the tires heat cycled by tirerack. i now hear that
the heat cycling they do is inadequate because they only get the
tire to 140 deg and they need 180 deg to really cycle.

thanks for the advice.

bob

-----Original Message-----
From: Bob Wass [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: Tuesday, June 22, 2004 2:20 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: so4's in 206/60-14


michael-
any idea when if if these tires
will be produced. i've heard a number of
confliting stories, may 04, june 04, that
they aren't even on the production
schedule as of last week.
bob

__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
___________________________________________

and another prior thread about the so3's:


Bob,
Here are the answers to your questions:

>>will both of of these tires work on a 6" rim?<<
Both of the tires will mount on a 6" rim, however neither one will perform
as designed on that narrow rim. You would be better off from a performance
standpoint using the 195/55-14, but that size is not available in A3S03.

>>should the 55's have a higher tire pressure on a 6" rim?<<
With all else being equal and optimized, the pressures should not vary
between the two tires. I could make a case that the 55 series tire would
need more pressure to support the same loading, but in racing applications,
the opposite can occur. The stiffness of the sidewall can allow for lower
pressure and maintain better performance. This would only apply if the
loading is well below the tire capability.
The real concern, in your case, is the narrow rim you are using. This
greatly compromises the tire capability and will introduce many variables
that cannot be calculated.

>>tire rack says you recommend cold pressures of 32-36psi,this is
quite a bit higher than what people here are running, ie. 27-30psi cold.<<
The recommendations we publish on our website are general rules of thumb.
Each vehicle design and configuration will develop its own requirements.
There are some suggestions for some of those different applications.
Higher pressures generate better performance, but require a higher level of
skill to extract that advantage.

>>what pressure rise should i expect during a 20 min run?<<
Depends a great deal on track, temperature, driver, and vehicle. Typically
the hot pressure is achieved within 4-5 laps. The greatest variable in the
amount of pressure rise has to do with the humidity of the contained air. If
there is a higher humidity there will be a greater pressure differential
between cold and hot. This is the reason teams will continuously purge the
air and replace it with nitrogen. It isn't the so much the gas, it's the
moisture within the gas that creates the pressure rise.


>>how does ambient air temp affect pressure rise? ie. should i expect
a greater rise from low ambient than high ambient?<<
The greater the differential in temperature the greater the pressure change.
In warmer weather there is a greater possibility that the tires will run
hotter due to increase grip and traction available.

what is the tire pressure story?
I think you have the story now.

Sincerely,
Mike Kraemer
Product Manager
Hoosier Racing Tire Corp.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Bob Wass" <[email protected]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, March 21, 2002 2:38 PM
Subject: FW: hoosier 205-60/14 205-55/14


> make that R3SO3's, same question.
>
> i'm running a3so3 hoosiers on a '67 alfa romeo gtv in vintage racing
> on the west coast.
>
> will both of of these tires work on a 6" rim?
>
> should the 55's have a higher tire pressure on a 6" rim?
>
> tire rack says you recommend cold pressures of 32-36psi,this is
> quite a bit higher than what people here are running, ie. 27-30psi cold.
>
> what pressure rise should i expect during a 20 min run?
>
> how does ambient air temp affect pressure rise? ie. should i expect
> a greater rise from low ambient than high ambient?
>
> what is the tire pressure story?
>
> bob wass
> 818.437.2818
 

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hey eliot! you gonna bring that beautiful alfa out here for the 2005 season?

ps. i think the hoosier guys are in hoosierland and are therefore coast agnostic.
 

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That's a long tow! Someday we'll have to arrange a east/west shootout race somewhere in the middle of the country. The Alfa conventions are fun but there are few race cars other than the ones in the area.

Eliot
 

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Yes, right in the middle. By the time that gets worked out, there might even be one more BS car in this area!

BTW, are any of you left coasters running in the 2.5 challenge? Is that getting back to a decent run series? I would consider preping my car for that instead of a GTAm replica if there was enough movement...

Eric
 

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2.5 Challenge

Hi Eric

The 2.5 looks like it went into a slump this summer, From my viewpoint there were too many people with different opinions, and some wanted to try different things. And some wanted to interpert the rules differently from the original rules.

But this is all part of growing pains that every orginization goes through. This next year will see a new Tech Steward, Bob Sullivan, who has been an engineer for teams in the Touring Car Championship, and Dinen Engineering, as well as being part of Jeff Hecocks BMW entry in the 2.5 since the begining. And Fred Schueddekopp will now have time to work with Kevin Mckee to "promote" the series. Should be great next year, (2005).

I hope the cars that didn't run this year, will have time this winter to bring their cars into compliance, and are tired of trying to run the lightest, fastest, all out setups, and come back to where driving skill counts!

I understand that Kevin and Fred are interested in getting us to run at all of the good west coast tracks, rather than one or two in Southeren California. It is a thrill, as well as a challenge, to master the thechnical aspects of tracks such as Thunderhill, Laguna Seca, Sears Point, Portland, and Seattle.

Check out twofivechallenge.com for details

George Willet
 

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George,
I think that the 2.5 Challenge has been in a slump for more than just this summer. I definitely agree with you when you say that there are too many people getting involved with all sorts of opinions. As far as the new chief steward goes, I'm not too sure that having a competitor's chief mechnaic be it is the smartest thing. Based on the past, there tends to be a lot of bias in this series in terms of car setup, especially coming from BMW(s). I have yet to understand the whole rule of how BMWs can do basically whatever they want to their suspension as well as convert their drums to discs. I highly doubt that we will ever see another 2.5 field like we did the first time the series attended Laguna Seca or when we participated in the Portland Historics. Hopefully the series will have some luck in the future cause I had a blast running with them but until I see some significant changes I doubt I will be racing my Super in that group.
 

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Fabrizio,
In his first event as Chief Steward six weeks ago, Bob disqualifed the winning car, a BMW, for running illegal brakes and tires. He also disqulifed the fourth place finsher, another BMW, for running under weight.
 

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Fabrizio,

Bob doesn't have a car.

Also, I would hope you would reconsider racing in the 2.5 Challenge again (if it reorganizes, of course). I was fun racing with you at Buttonwillow last Fall. Even Kevin McKee said it was an awesome sight seeing your Super and our TI out on the track.
 

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I ment the car he works on...Jeff's car. I definitely am planning on racing with the 2.5 Challenge in the future. I'm just waiting for the fields to grow. I've been running with VARA and I just enjoy being in fields of their size. I've made some changes to the Super like lowering it a lot and putting some GTA holes in the front. You guys should run some VARA races and beat up on the BMWs with me.

Beating BMWs
http://gordon.smugmug.com/gallery/198555/11

Liftin' a wheel
http://www.printroom.com/ViewGalleryPhoto.asp?shopperid=PS8Q8UD11TS88HH92URKW1WV9E500439&userid=prosportphoto&gallery_id=88303&image_id=150
 
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