Alfa Romeo Forums banner

1 - 20 of 30 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,635 Posts
Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
Hello members,

At the moment, a real Giulia TI Super is being restored in Holland. You may have heard from it as the technical details of this car are discussed in the 'Limited Production 1960 - 1977' chapter of this forum (look in 'help me out on a real TI Super').

Rik (Berlinista) and I (Zagato_Olaf) sat down last week to have a look at this TI Super. We talked about the restoration and what Rik and the team found when stripping the car and rebuilding it. We will publish some of that knowledge in the techical section in order to track it's history.

The same goes for some names of previous owners which I will be publishing in due time in this chapter.

In the mean time Rik researched the car and found a register of TI Supers. I had a talk with the present owner to find out more about the history of this specific car. At present a profile is being built that contains all known information of this specific TI Super. We hope that the alfabb members can help us. What do we know on the historical side?

Chassis- and enginenumbers:
The first piece of information on the TI Super (model 105.16) contains information on the chassis- and enginenumbers. My question is; is there a member who can comment on the chassisnumbers and can either confirm or deny that the chassis- and enginenumbers were matching?

Maurizio Tabucchi in his book 'Guida all'identificazione Alfa Romeo' published in 2000 by Giordio Nada Editore and Maurizio Tabucchi & Stefano d' Amico in the book 'Alfa Romeo, Le vetture di produzione' published in 2007 by Giorgio Nada Ediore, give us the following information:

In 1963 Alfa Romeo built 595001, 595003 up to 595181. Also built in 1963 were 595183, 186, 190, 194, 196, 201, 202, 203, 205, 210, 212, 219 and 236.
Exceptions to this range were 055 (not issued) and 595169 (destroyed). Chassisnumbers 595019, 065, 127, 138, 139, 150, 151, 156, 167, 175, 178 were built in 1964.

In 1964 Alfa Romeo built 595182 up to 595509. Incuded were 595019, 065, 127, 138, 139, 150, 151, 156, 167, 175 and 178. Exceptions were 595183, 186, 190, 194, 196, 201, 202, 203, 205, 210, 212, 219, 236 that were produced in 1963. Not produced were 595245, 397 and 414.

If you look at Fusi in his book 'Alfa Romeo, Tutte le Vetture dal 1910' published in 1978 by Emmeti Grafica Editrice, the following chassis- and enginenumbers are known:
1963: 595001 up to 595178 with engine 00516.00001 up to 00516.00178
1964: 595179 up to 595501 with engine 00516.00179 up to 00516.00501

Any help would be greatly appreciated!

Ciao, Olaf
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
80 Posts
Typo

Dear Olaf,
I am really looking forward to reading your and Berlinista's research on TI SUPERs.
It is refreshing to know that there are TI SUPER fanatics who are willing to do everything in their power to restore this TI SUPER to factory original condition. Since the early 1980's I have tried to collect information and every article published on these cars, but I have not learned much new that is totally reliable.
However, so that we do not confuse the neophytes, please correct the typo about the type number of the TI SUPER to 105.16 in both the above post and in the post in the Limited Production section. Regards.:)
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,635 Posts
Discussion Starter #3 (Edited)
TI Super History

Dear Olaf,
I am really looking forward to reading your and Berlinista's research on TI SUPERs.
It is refreshing to know that there are TI SUPER fanatics who are willing to do everything in their power to restore this TI SUPER to factory original condition. Since the early 1980's I have tried to collect information and every article published on these cars, but I have not learned much new that is totally reliable.
However, so that we do not confuse the neophytes, please correct the typo about the type number of the TI SUPER to 105.16 in both the above post and in the post in the Limited Production section. Regards.:)

Dear CN36,

Thanks for your response! I changed the Ti Super to TI Super and the typo on the model number. What did you learn in the articles about the TI Super that could be worth sharing? And do you know if the cars had a matching number chassis and engine? Some people say they did, some say they didn't. More to come.

Ciao, Olaf
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
567 Posts
Just checked the February 1964 "Uso e Manutenzione" manual for the TI Super but unfortunately, there are no clues there either.

Unlike some other Alfa manuals from the 1960's, it doesn't even refer to the placing of serial numbers and / or engine numbers.

 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,635 Posts
Discussion Starter #5 (Edited)
Chassis and engine numbers

Just checked the February 1964 "Uso e Manutenzione" manual for the TI Super but unfortunately, there are no clues there either.

Unlike some other Alfa manuals from the 1960's, it doesn't even refer to the placing of serial numbers and / or engine numbers.
Hello Jack,

Thanks for your reply.

So no information on matching or non matching numbers for chassis and engine yet. Rik (Berlinista) found a website that has a couple of TI Supers on record. Here it is: Benvenuti nel Registro Giulia T.I. Super

It strikes me that none of the cars on this website has a matching chassis/engine. But then again, these cars had a hard life if raced and engine changes were common.

Here is a look at the engine bay of the car we are researching.

Ciao, Olaf
 

Attachments

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,635 Posts
Discussion Starter #6
Combined register on TI Super

Hello members,

What I did next was to combine the TI Super register mentioned in the previous post (Benvenuti nel Registro Giulia T.I. Super) with the TI Supers on the US Berlina register (Berlina Register).

Please remember that I copied the info on owners and remarks without any changes. So the owner mentioned isn't supposed to be the present owner of the car. And info can be outdated.

Find the list attached to this post, so that you can see for yourself.

Ciao, Olaf
 

Attachments

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,635 Posts
Discussion Starter #7
Licenseplates and previous owners of this TI Super

Hello members,

We move on with the history of the TI Super we are researching;

This car had two Italian licenseplates in the sixties, seventies, eighties and nineties of the last century.

MI 880253
PC 122742

It also had a couple of owners we were able to trace because of the papers that were delivered with the car:

Bruno Fava of Piacenza in 1970
Lino Fava of Piacenza in 1970/1971
Ettore Colombi in 1971

Is there anyone who knows of a TI Super in Italy around that time with these licenseplates or knows the people we mentioned here?

Photograph with the courtesy of Berlinista.

Ciao, Olaf
 

Attachments

·
Registered
Joined
·
13 Posts
Other TI Super VIN numbers that were produced include: for 1963; 037, 098, 133, 143, 174 and for 1964; 451 & 460. All cars are still in existance.
It seems that there exists three registers for TI Supers...one in each Italy, Australia & California (this last one is really a subset of Andrew Watry's Giulia Super Register).
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,635 Posts
Discussion Starter #9 (Edited)
Combined public Ti Super registers

Other TI Super VIN numbers that were produced include: for 1963; 037, 098, 133, 143, 174 and for 1964; 451 & 460. All cars are still in existance.
It seems that there exists three registers for TI Supers...one in each Italy, Australia & California (this last one is really a subset of Andrew Watry's Giulia Super Register).
Hello Madison Wall,

Thank you for your reply. You will find the combination of the public
Ti Super registers with about 41 Ti Supers known all over the world
in the attachment of post number 6.

Ciao! Olaf
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,678 Posts
AR Giulia TI Super

Thanks in large part to research done 20 years ago (or more?) by Lorenzo Boscarelli, I have some notes on a few cars that will very likely yield more information on the following cars if it should ever be deemed necessary or desirable.

595001
595002
595008
595018
595020
595021
595085 (reportedly first sold 28.1.64)
595104
595119 (auctioned 1998)
595251
595253
595258
595276
595476 reported relatively recently in Argentina

Additionally, for historical reference, Henry Wessells told me of a car that he owned in 1964/65. It was a TI N. 404401 that was modified 1963 by Facetti into "Super" configuration for racing. Henry crashed it in 1965 and it was scrapped. I wonder how many other similar "modified in period" cars there were that might be considered as historically relevant as most of the "genuine" TI Super cars?

If I may add my two cents to the "matching numbers" question, I think it highly unlikely that Alfa Romeo would have been at all interested in such a distraction during the production of these cars. Not impossible that it might have happened, but if so, probably a mere fluke.


John de Boer
The Italian Car Registry
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
21,212 Posts
Barry Edmunds in Australia might have more info on TI Supers outside the US. He runs the worldwide Giulia Register, and I run the US component.

Giulia Sedans, including TI Supers in the US, are listed here: Vintage Alfa Romeo Registry

Google resorted by VIN, not year.

Andrew
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,635 Posts
Discussion Starter #13
Have been in touch with Barry Edmunds

Barry Edmunds in Australia might have more info on TI Supers outside the US. He runs the worldwide Giulia Register, and I run the US component.

Giulia Sedans, including TI Supers in the US, are listed here: Vintage Alfa Romeo Registry

Google resorted by VIN, not year.

Andrew
Hello Andrew,

Thanks for the tip.
I have been in touch with Barry and we have compared our notes on the TI Super. We solved some questions and raised some more. But that is the reality with these kind of things!

Ciao! Olaf
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1 Posts
Add one more

Thanks in large part to research done 20 years ago (or more?) by Lorenzo Boscarelli, I have some notes on a few cars that will very likely yield more information on the following cars if it should ever be deemed necessary or desirable.

595001
595002
595008
595018
595020
595021
595085 (reportedly first sold 28.1.64)
595104
595119 (auctioned 1998)
595251
595253
595258
595276
595476 reported relatively recently in Argentina

Additionally, for historical reference, Henry Wessells told me of a car that he owned in 1964/65. It was a TI N. 404401 that was modified 1963 by Facetti into "Super" configuration for racing. Henry crashed it in 1965 and it was scrapped. I wonder how many other similar "modified in period" cars there were that might be considered as historically relevant as most of the "genuine" TI Super cars?

If I may add my two cents to the "matching numbers" question, I think it highly unlikely that Alfa Romeo would have been at all interested in such a distraction during the production of these cars. Not impossible that it might have happened, but if so, probably a mere fluke.


John de Boer
The Italian Car Registry
I'm very new to this forum, like 1 hour! May I add one more T.I.Super to the list? Add #437. It's been hidden away for about 35 years while I raced a couple of Formula Fords. I'm now in the process of restoring it for the street. It was a TransAm car I believe raced by Bill Kanuz. I hope to have more info on the car and maybe photos in the spring. For now see the "Illustrated Alfa Romeo Buyers Guide" by Joe Benson, page 101.

D. A. Bruno
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,678 Posts
TI Super chassis numbers

Thank you "D.A. Bruno" for sharing the chassis number of your car. Do you also have an appropriate engine fitted and ... does it seem to be the original? May we learn the engine number? Do you recall from whom it was that you purchased the car? Any additional history or special details come to mind?

This also reminds us that, after more than three years of teasing, the identity of the subject car of this thread has not been revealed. Perhaps I need to go find the technical thread mentioned that is related to the car? Perhaps that information is there? Here, there has been no chassis number. No engine number. No indication of what Alfa Romeo must have revealed when an inquiry was surely(?) made.

Yeah, I could research the 1964 Milano plate that was revealed early on, and this would surely reveal a number of new details, including the chassis number and the Certificate of Origin date. Perhaps the original engine number(?) and certainly the official early ownership history, but why should I be inspired to invest in this research? As indicated, I have solid leads to learning more about all the cars I listed earlier in this thread. Research on those cars will undoubtedly have implications that might help answer the "matching numbers" question. But, there would be some expense and time involved in such a study. Who is it that cares enough to fund such a study? Who is it that cares enough to share what they've observed in their own car?

Again, I cannot imagine that Alfa Romeo bothered to make the engine numbers match the chassis for these cars. They ceased doing so in about 1935 for their road cars. Prove my imagination wrong!

John de Boer
The Italian Car Registry ... yup, another keeper of a registry ... since 1980.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,635 Posts
Discussion Starter #17 (Edited)
Chassis and engine numbers

This also reminds us that, after more than three years of teasing, the identity of the subject car of this thread has not been revealed. Perhaps I need to go find the technical thread mentioned that is related to the car? Perhaps that information is there? Here, there has been no chassis number. No engine number. No indication of what Alfa Romeo must have revealed when an inquiry was surely(?) made.

John de Boer
The Italian Car Registry ... yup, another keeper of a registry ... since 1980.
Hello John,

Sorry for that! I didn´t realise that we didn´t mention the chassisnumber.
This car is 595221 from 1964 with engine 00516 00229. After a complete restoration the car has been sold.
The other thread that is refered to is http://www.alfabb.com/bb/forums/limited-production-1960-1977/56289-help-me-out-real-ti-super-6.html

Ciao, Olaf
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
21,212 Posts
I'm writing up a short TI Super article for the next Giulia/Berlina newsletter. Will be very general, not going into specifics on any car. The article is pitched at "regular" Giulia and Berlina owners, not TI Super owners and devotees.

One item I wonder. Anyone know a factory price, if there was such a thing, for a TI Super compared to a Giulia TI at the time? I don't recall ever seeing it.

Anyone working on a book, along the lines of Alleggerita? That'd be great, if subject to a more limited market.

Thanks all.

Andrew
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,184 Posts
Italian prices from Fusi - all in Italian Lira

elaborazione per corsa = race preparation

Giulia TI Lit. 1,570,000
Giulia Super ('65) Lit. 1,775,000
Giulia TI Super Lit. 2,400,000
Giulia SS Lit. 2,500,000
Giulia Sprint GT Lit. 2,195,000
Giulia GTC Lit. 2,395,000
Giulia Sprint GTA Lit. 2,995,000 + elaborazione per corsa Lit. 2,078,000
Giulia TZ Lit. 3,700,000

2600 SZ Lit. 3,970,000
 
1 - 20 of 30 Posts
Top