Alfa Romeo Forums banner

1 - 20 of 38 Posts

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
757 Posts
Discussion Starter #1
I'm really enjoying driving my "new" 164Q, but I have a concern about the handling in "high speed" turns, such as taken on freeway to freeway ramps. My car seems to "hunt" in this type of turn, with a definate pull in the steering wheel. The car has 195-15 Michelin WRX4 all weather tires, that do not seem to suit the driving characterisitics of the car, but I'm not sure if this is the primary cause or if other factors in the drive train are of more concern. The steering wheel also oscillates from side to side when braking in neutral, and I'm not sure if this is an indication of the same problem or not.

Thanks!
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
26,814 Posts
I'm really enjoying driving my "new" 164Q, but I have a concern about the handling in "high speed" turns, such as taken on freeway to freeway ramps. My car seems to "hunt" in this type of turn, with a definate pull in the steering wheel. The car has 195-15 Michelin WRX4 all weather tires, that do not seem to suit the driving characterisitics of the car, but I'm not sure if this is the primary cause or if other factors in the drive train are of more concern. The steering wheel also oscillates from side to side when braking in neutral, and I'm not sure if this is an indication of the same problem or not.

Thanks!

Does it want to change directions when you have power on, dump power and then reapply power? If so jack up front wheels and check for play in inner tie rod ends or play in steering rack attach points.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
9,744 Posts
I'm really enjoying driving my "new" 164Q, but I have a concern about the handling in "high speed" turns, such as taken on freeway to freeway ramps. My car seems to "hunt" in this type of turn, with a definate pull in the steering wheel. The car has 195-15 Michelin WRX4 all weather tires, that do not seem to suit the driving characterisitics of the car, but I'm not sure if this is the primary cause or if other factors in the drive train are of more concern. The steering wheel also oscillates from side to side when braking in neutral, and I'm not sure if this is an indication of the same problem or not.

Thanks!
Some possible problems may be bad steering rack bushing or bad control arm bushing. Check front ones, smaller ones. Those go bad the most and cause the issues you describe. (I have replacement bushings coming in soon if you do need only those bushings)

Also check rear control arms for any bends. This can also add to any handling issues.

Michelin MXV4's are okay tires, they may not work well with this car.
I suggest next time going with the Michelin Pilot Exalto A/S.

Oh, BTW did this just start happening?

Jason
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,771 Posts
I noticed instability in the rear when I had way too much toe-in on another car. If you can eye-ball some significant toe-in, I'd get that fixed right away.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
9,744 Posts
I noticed instability in the rear when I had way too much toe-in on another car. If you can eye-ball some significant toe-in, I'd get that fixed right away.
With factory wheels I suggest going with spec which is +4 to +6 toe in in the rear.

With a wider tire I recommend 0 to +1 toe in. 0 toe front.

But grant is right, if you have something like a bent tie rod on the rear causing more tor in on one side it can cause a slew of problems with stability as the rear wheels do keep the car straight and stable.

But I am still thinking control arm bushing, steering rack bushings, tie rod end or inner tie rod (check steering boots for tears). Since your having steering issues. Something stupid but check your steering wheel telescope adjustment to make sure it is tight as well as the bolt that goes through it. RED handle under dash.


Jason
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
5,457 Posts
I have to agree with Jason on this one. But it also sounds normal if he is just talking about torque steer. If the allignment is off, then it will not brake straight either. IMO, 205/60/15 is the best tire for a stock setup. I've had great luck with the "inexpensive" Kumho Ecstas. Honestly, I could buy two to three Kumhos for one Michelin, so that's just the way I go... :)
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
852 Posts
That happened a couple of time for me on both cars. On L, I took the ramp at around 65mph (while the sign says 30mph) and thts it, loads and loads of understeer, the only way I got out of tht situation is floor the gas and turn the steering all the way to opposite direction and once the car gets to be on track, get the steering straight. On other day, this is in my red one, its on the windy road of CA-1 going from GGBridge, the car is all over the road, you apply brakes it just skids away (even with ABS) rather you apply gas it spins all over the place. But, tht was fun though.... but I can honestly say its not as stable as my SVX, but this has character in it which you wont find in other cars.
-Pavan
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
15,538 Posts
I'd be suspect of the brand, type, and tires pressures of the tires on the car.

With tires, you get what you pay for, and while some people like several of the less expensive brands for driving around town, they don't hold up when being thrashed at high speeds, esp when you have the improper mix of pressures.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
757 Posts
Discussion Starter #9
I just purchased the car recently, and so I do not know if it has occurred recently or not. But I can hold a fairly steady speed and throttle, and it feels as if the car is changing back and forth from understeer to oversteer. (or push to loose for your NASCAR boys). It seems to be more pronouced when in the "normal" suspension mode in comparison to the "sport" mode. Also notice that the steering wheel will move back and forth when decelerating in neutral, more evident when the brakes are applied.

Thanks for your input.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
5,457 Posts
That happened a couple of time for me on both cars. On L, I took the ramp at around 65mph (while the sign says 30mph) and thts it, loads and loads of understeer, the only way I got out of tht situation is floor the gas and turn the steering all the way to opposite direction and once the car gets to be on track, get the steering straight. On other day, this is in my red one, its on the windy road of CA-1 going from GGBridge, the car is all over the road, you apply brakes it just skids away (even with ABS) rather you apply gas it spins all over the place. But, tht was fun though.... but I can honestly say its not as stable as my SVX, but this has character in it which you wont find in other cars.
-Pavan
I don't see what good giving a car more throttle would do when you are already understeering...in a FWD car!! Now, I can see hitting the brakes and at the same time, pressing on the accelerator to straighten her out...you have modulate between the two to find a medium...you don't want too much gas or too much brake.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,624 Posts
I just got back from a 200 mile trip in my '95 tonight and going through some corners at high speed the car was exactly where I wanted it to be with out wandering. I would check the steering rack bushings and look under the rear end to see if there is something misaligned. The car should be very precise going in and coming out. Jack the front end up and check the suspension by pulling on the wheels, to see if there is play in the suspension.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
852 Posts
I don't see what good giving a car more throttle would do when you are already understeering...in a FWD car!! Now, I can see hitting the brakes and at the same time, pressing on the accelerator to straighten her out...you have modulate between the two to find a medium...you don't want too much gas or too much brake.
Yeh you got it right, at tht moment I dont have a choice other than doin this way... I already hit the brakes hard while it is understeering, and by that time my speeds went down as low as 35mph, now if I haven't gave it gas and turn the steering in opposite dierction atleast for tht brief moment I would have totaled my L at that time. Anyway it worked for me at tht time.
-Pavan
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
9,744 Posts
Jeez Pavan! Take it easy, these 164's ain't no Subaru SVX....
And the SVX is NO 164...trust me.

Tire pressures make a huge difference in performance on this car. Tiny adjustments can make it handle like a car on rails and or handle like a car with the sloppiest suspension known to mankind.
Tires are 100% you get what you pay for, I agree with that. I hear the cheap tires being good but I have been through the cheap route a few times to save a buck. When all you buy is cheap or "inexpensive" tires what do you have to gauge with, well inexpensive tires.
Michelin In general are my choice of tires. They are expensive but you also have to pick the right ones, some are terrible and some are fantastic. The ones you mention are in the medicore range at best, known to have issues. Don't get me wrong there are good inexpensive tires out there for around town driving and what not but I have tried many of the cheap tires and they never performed well on this car (Kuhmo, Falken, *Pirelli, Nitto, just to name a few). If you do Michelin again go with the Pilot Sport Exalto A/S, there are many other nice tires out there. Put some on a L about 2 months ago and the owner raves about them and how it transformed the car.
Everyone has their opinions on tires and so do I. So do what you can but spend your money I tires, it is the main component for handling and STOPPING.
I have I have been through many sets and brands on this car and have really enjoyed the performance that the michelin pilot sports give. Comfort and performance in all weather, even snow and rain.
Anyways, tires are another one of those topics that can go on forever, like what oil is the best... :)

Alignment is another factor that is very precise on this car, a little out and the car will handle terrible, that mixed with bad tires and maybe some problem components will result is unstable handling in corners and at high speed.

But again I think you have a suspension issue that is causing all your problems. I think you may have a bad control arm bushing.

Anyways, check the control arm bushings, steering rack bushings and rear tie rods for bends and so forth.

Without that we can go on for days on what it could be!

Check it out and get back with us.
Jason

*Not cheap, they just are terrible tires
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,724 Posts
It sounds like the exact same symptoms I had in my S. On high speed lefty ramps car would understeer way too much for my liking on hard acceleration the torque steer was rediculous and like you the steering would wonder. And to note I have a 92 L also and it made no sense that my S handled so sloppy. Well it was the drivers side lower A arm and rack bushings. Replaced those a month ago and it drives great now. Whatever it is make sure you realign it afterwards too.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,506 Posts
OK. Your 164Q is a bit sloppy, unstable steering. I think I mentioned above that my wife's 164S was a bit iffy in high speed turns (slow freeway changes of direction) to the point that it felt un-nerving. But only above 60 mph. I replaced the rear springs and it sat up 1 to 1.5 inches higher _AND_ stabilized the car. Now, I'm not saying this will absolutely work for your car, but you should post the inner fender well height above ground for all four points. I'd have done that but I lost the paper with the measurements I took and I'll have to take them all over again. What others have said about trailing arms and A-arm bushings and rack bushings is all worth listening to . But the same symptoms apparently can be caused by different sources. Keep that in mind as you fix each thing in turn.

Happy Q'ing. Take care of it and may all go well for you both.

Michael
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
757 Posts
Discussion Starter #18
Thanks to All

Based upon everyone responses, I think that I will have to check the rear alignment. I'll yet you know what I find!
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
757 Posts
Discussion Starter #20
Normal versus Sport Setting?

I have driven the my 164Q through the same freeway ramp with the suspension set at "Sport" rather than "Normal" with much better results. Could the computer be switching from the soft to hard settings repeatedly in a long high speed curve and give me the feeling that the car is unstable?
 
1 - 20 of 38 Posts
Top