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Just picked up today a Giulietta Spider labeled as model 10103, chassis number AR370002 that has only 21K documented miles and is registered as a 1962 model. Motor # is AR00102*28818 which appears original to the car. I can't find the chassis or engine listed on any of the registries so it will be good to add a new Vin to the lists. I'll request the historical certificate to verify before listing it. There appears to be a discrepancy in the factory production number sequences for this model number. Vin 370002 would appear to be a 10123, no? Any help from you historians in clearing up this question is appreciated. The car has been sitting in a tiny storage garage since early1989 and appears to be mostly stock with one exterior repaint about 40 years ago. There are some signs of metal repair in the trunk area due to battery corrosion/rust. Otherwise no visible rust. Paint in most of the trunk, dash, door jambs, and engine compartment appears original, as is the carpet, dash and steering wheel. New seat covers, but needs new foam. P.O. started it up occasionally but drove it less than 100 miles a year on average. Currently seems to run fine and is complete except for missing jack and tool kit. Undercarriage is filthy and most seals are leaky as I expected. I asked the owner the condition of the top and he said, "I don't know, I think it's original but I haven't looked at it for more than 25 years." I inspected it this evening and will replace it as the window is very yellowed and the stitching is starting to come apart. The car had 18K miles in 1989 when previously purchased it from a SLC dentist. Included with my purchase was a separate "racing" engine which is a mystery to me and I'm not sure what to do with it. I need to track down the original owner dentist and see what he remembers. I'll describe the engine in a separate post. I think I should refresh and leave it as stock as possible. What do you think? Needs fresh fluids, brakes, seals and a tune up not to mention a major detailing job. I'm developing a punch list of minor things that need sorted (wiper motor, window crank, water temp sender, oil temp sender, belt, hoses, etc). Should be a fun driver that deserves some sunshine for a change.
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Listed as a 1962,10123, yes. Engine is a 1961 Spider (Normale). Just guessing here, if it’s truly original, it’s one of the very last Giuliettas, even though the serial number denotes it as a Giulia.
Or the 1600 engine disappeared and a ‘61 engine replaced it. If you show a photo of the engine hood down, that might clear it up. Unless the hood went with the 1600, wherever that is. The steering wheel looks like my ‘61, except it’s missing the white plastic overlay. Your desert air there has served it well if that’s where you found it.

Carl will like this one for his archives because I think it’s another Fusi (or factory) listing mistake on serial numbers matching and/or changing in the spring of 1962 for Giulias.

The data plate is a true Giulietta plate. The windshield fluid reservoir is an add on. The clips for the original washer bag are still there. Don’t lose those. Can you tell if the voltage regulator is a Lucas? It’s in a different location than my December-built Spider. Perhaps during that repaint the VR and relays were reconfigured. Is the PF number still visible in the trunk? Can you share a close up of the serial number and the trunk floor number, please?
 

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Thank you so much for sharing your insights. I like the theory that the Fusi/factory listing is mistaken as I see no evidence that it ever had a 1600. Underside of hood and entire engine bay paint is original so it's curious that the VR is in a different location. So it appears to be one of the last of the Giulietta series made during the transition to Giulia? The early VIN (number two of the 37000 Giulia production series) might indicate that they had a 10103 data plate left over, along with a 1300 engine, four speed gearbox, and wanted to use up as many left over Giulietta parts as possible. I'd really like to compare it with a '62 Giulia 10123 made later in the year. Yes, the voltage regulator and coil are Lucas. I could only find a stamped three digit number on the trunk lid as the entire trunk floor was replaced and sourced from Canada. There is a stamped number on the floor but is filled with paint and is illegible. The paint on the underside of the trunk lid and everywhere except the trunk floor appears original. Is the rubber battery cap original? I'm curious about the steering box that looks to have come from Germany.
 

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I’m not a 101/750 expert, but have been both professionally and avocationally involved with Alfas since the early 70s. What I wish to offer here is a perspective, not specifics.

Prior to 1989, these cars were just old sports cars. Yes, we loved them, but there was not much monetary interest. Thus, when an owner faced a mechanical or cosmetic issue, the line of least pain was normally the case.

When you say the engine “appears original to the car”, what might one expect to see that would be evidence of a change?

The above text is not quite clear to me. It seems to say that the car has a four speed transmission. I think. It is hugely unlikely that the factory would have installed a four speed in 61. Much more likely that a dead engine would be replaced by whatever power unit could be found in the 60s or 70s, long before the internet made it massively easier. I can imagine the search turning up the race engine, but the complexity of readapting it to this car for street use resulted in it being shoved into a corner and ignored.

As a data point, I sold a GP Giulietta Spider race car, with trailer, fresh engine, and tires in 1981 for $1,700. It was in very attractive, ready to race condition. I acquired the race car in an even swap for my restored 65 Sprint GT.

So, this strikes me as a very nice find. However, I doubt the current components are all original. You should be able to include the engine number in your query to the museum, and they can normally (not always) confirm or deny if it is original.
 

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What you have found is a 1962 Giulietta Spider Normale 10103.

It is a Giulietta built in a Giulia shell, part of the evolution between Giulietta & Giulia, Fusi records 1096 were built. You can find them on page 841 in Fusi, top of the page, last 2 lines of 1962 shows 2 rows of 10123 Giulia Spiders, the top Spider line should be 10103 and not 10123. Fusi has many little errors & omissions - despite this we owe a great debt to Sig Fusi.

The motor should be a 00102 block, the numbers are both in common with the last of 1961 as well as just above these, so it's possible to have an engine that is outside of the Fusi numbers.

The voltage regulator is 100% correct in its current position, this is a Giulia shell remember & when Alfa switched to the Giulia shell they dropped the Veloce model entirely, see the flat inner wing pressing behind the VR - no pressed recess for the Veloce air scoop duct & so Alfa relocated the VR to that space.

Just like the Sprints, Alfa deemed the 1600 motor to be adequate for the 101 Giulia's & they most certainly did not want the old 101 models to be able to challenge the new 105 Sprint GT or Duetto. Hence in the 101's there are no 1962 and 1963 Veloce derivatives. But the Duetto was late & Alfa desperately needed a flagship Spider, so lucky owners of the most exquisite Jewels in the 1091 Giulia Spider Veloce's must nightly thank Pininfarina & Alfa for dragging their feet with the 105 Spider.

We have one in the town I live in, an April '62 delivered new to Zambia, now here in Port Elizabeth, South Africa. 10102*370648 with a very late '61 dated engine.

Ciao
Greig
 

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Discussion Starter #6
Thanks Don for your perspective. I have a lot more research to do to verify what was represented. I'm awaiting the contact info for the guy who owned the car prior to 1989 and hopefully he will be able to fill in some of the history of both the car and racing engine.
 

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Greig,
Your explanation is very helpful. I loved the "Giulietta in a Giulia shell" which makes the model transition process even more visual. I'll keep the copy of the Fusi reference with your notes as an explanation for why my car doesn't match the listing. So much to learn about the cars we own. My wife and I enjoyed your beautiful country very much during a visit last year and hope to return someday soon.
Dan S.
 

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Greig,
Which cylinder head did these late 1300 cars use?

Dan,
The ZF steering is standard for your car, as is the 4 speed gearbox.

Joe
 

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Many call these "transition cars" where the last of the Giulietta parts went into Giulia bodies. There are NOT a lot of these making them unique. Greig has it 100% correct. You have a very nice car there that appears quite correct as built.
This is, as usual, only my opinion from my own experiences.
 

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I owned 370075 ages ago, which was from the same series of Giulietta Spiders. Apart from the serial number, all features were 1300 - brakes, hood, instruments, etc. I cannot comment about the engine as the car was fitted with a 750 block when I got it and left with a 105 block when I sold it.
 

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What you have found is a 1962 Giulietta Spider Normale 10103.

It is a Giulietta built in a Giulia shell, part of the evolution between Giulietta & Giulia, Fusi records 1096 were built. You can find them on page 841 in Fusi, top of the page, last 2 lines of 1962 shows 2 rows of 10123 Giulia Spiders, the top Spider line should be 10103 and not 10123. Fusi has many little errors & omissions - despite this we owe a great debt to Sig Fusi.

The motor should be a 00102 block, the numbers are both in common with the last of 1961 as well as just above these, so it's possible to have an engine that is outside of the Fusi numbers.

The voltage regulator is 100% correct in its current position, this is a Giulia shell remember & when Alfa switched to the Giulia shell they dropped the Veloce model entirely, see the flat inner wing pressing behind the VR - no pressed recess for the Veloce air scoop duct & so Alfa relocated the VR to that space.

Just like the Sprints, Alfa deemed the 1600 motor to be adequate for the 101 Giulia's & they most certainly did not want the old 101 models to be able to challenge the new 105 Sprint GT or Duetto. Hence in the 101's there are no 1962 and 1963 Veloce derivatives. But the Duetto was late & Alfa desperately needed a flagship Spider, so lucky owners of the most exquisite Jewels in the 1091 Giulia Spider Veloce's must nightly thank Pininfarina & Alfa for dragging their feet with the 105 Spider.

We have one in the town I live in, an April '62 delivered new to Zambia, now here in Port Elizabeth, South Africa. 10102*370648 with a very late '61 dated engine.

Ciao
Greig
Greig,
That washer fluid reservoir is not stock, is it?

The engine number is right after mine. Very nice find, indeed, with that Giulia serial number.

The chassis and engine bay bolt holes look like mine, but I have the Veloce air plate cover. Were those bolt attachment points changed for the VR & the relays, or just rearranged for them?
 

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The white tank is an aftermarket coolant expansion tank. The amber hose appears to be aimed towards the radiator. This means there is no visible windshield washer container.
 

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Greig,
Which cylinder head did these late 1300 cars use?
Joe
Hi Joe

The late 101 cars used the cylinder head with the 4 circular casting plugs with the hexagonal centers as is shown on the engine in this car, some had 00101 casting numbers and some didn't <-- My observation

A rough guide to heads:
1954 to early 1959 = 750 head, 3 rectangular steel plates and one oblong hole left front to take the Fuel pump
Mid '59 - end '60-ish = 101 head with the 4 rectangular steel plates
'61 onwards = 101 head with the 4 round hex plugs

750 Veloce owners take note that your cars continued to used the pure 750 Veloce engine into late '59-ish about 5 or 6 months after the Normale went to the 101 style block but still with the 1315 numbers

Ciao
Greig
 

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Greig,
That washer fluid reservoir is not stock, is it?

The engine number is right after mine. Very nice find, indeed, with that Giulia serial number.

The chassis and engine bay bolt holes look like mine, but I have the Veloce air plate cover. Were those bolt attachment points changed for the VR & the relays, or just rearranged for them?

The changeover from Giulietta to Giulia shells brought about 2 real changes, firstly the chassis numbers now started at AR*37xxxx and the LHS inner wing panel no longer had the pressed recess or the punched hole for the Veloce air pipe, instead it was a flat panel in the front 1/3 as you seen under the VR of this car. Pininfarina & Alfa then relocated the VR to the front as the Giulia got the big air cleaner bracket on the LHS inner wing and the old VR position was in the way. On this car the funny blue after market expansion tank's upper brackets are screwed to the 2 upper air filter bracket holes. On the 1300 Interim Giulietta / Giulia version like this car those holes would have most likely been filled with a bit of dum-dum putty

Ciao
Greig
 

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Greig, thanks for the explanation on these unique cars and the small changes made as they went along from '61 to '62. Did the Bosch parts fit into those same holes designed for the Lucas, or did the pure Giulias get new bolt spots on a newly designed firewall, use preexisting holes, or were new holes drilled having those round threaded nuts welded into new spots?

Not having another reference car to use when I was first the fitting engine bay's fire & fender wall parts (all removed before I bought the car) it was possible to configure those electrical parts differently as it was like a small child's puzzle. The brackets can actually fit in the wrong spots, or the relays can face the wrong way too. Seems silly now, but for the first-timer it was all part of sorting things out in their correct configuration. Lots of threads here asking, "how does this go in?" thankfully answered for so many parts on Giuliettas. The 50% chance of guessing right on many of these rarely paid off for me!

My Spider has the pressed hole version for the Veloce air pipe covered with the painted plate shown in this picture from last year. They (PF?) must have hand drilled the holes for that plate's screws after the fact on the line as they came through, because they missed one corner screw of the four hitting enough of the metal behind hit on mine around its pressed curve that faces out toward the LH wheel and air hose. Makes sense doing each individually. They wouldn't have wanted unnecessary screw holes visible on one's Veloce there from the inside.

Regarding the dum-dum in the unused holes, I'm guessing paintable caulk would now be the thing to use for those. My firewall has the holes to receive the Veloce parts like everyone else's. Why they didn't just use the shorter lobo bolts and washers in those firewall holes to plug them instead of dum-dum is beyond me. I'm sure it was cost saving, but it looks hokey. Making it pretty there was not a priority, I know. Not wanting to pick anything more out of screw holes, and after chasing every threaded hole on this car I have yet to fill those in.
 

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Greig, I've owners that ask me to write a book, and I'm SURE you have had the same requests. Just from your comments above, readers can see that writing a complete book on what we have learned through observation, over many years, would take the remainder of a lifetime, leaving no time for anything else. I'm impressed!
 
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It may take a lifetime just to copy and paste from here to an online book or a disc. I for one appreciate the decades of experience shared and the time to do it. At least it’s in here somewhere to find.
 

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The ENTIRE purpose of the BB.
 
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The ENTIRE purpose of the BB.
Exactly and why we as your unpaid Mods & Admin TEAM spend so many hours behind the scenes keeping the BB's wheels greased & on track.... labour of love, but more so a labour of so much value and information available free of charge to anyone & everyone

But at the end of the day, the cars are absolutely worthless without ALL Y'ALL owners..... you guys are the reason we're here, because you understand that we're just custodians for the next custodian & that these cars are meant to be driven and to have fun in them.

Ciao
Greig
 
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