help !!!!!!!!!!

2229 Views 17 Replies 8 Participants Last post by Alfasergio, Oct 25, 2007

Alfasergio

Discussion Starter · Oct 23, 2007

its happened to me once before but today after a 10 min ride in my 1974 spider i returned home and accidently stalled it in the driveway but when i turned the key i did not even here the engine turn all i heard was this noise like something spining.... a wirling noise almost like a power grinder for about 15 seconds it did not stop even by removing the key

could it be the starter the last time it happened i didnt stall i just stepped out to get some coffee at starbucks and it did it. but after it stops it will start normally...... help!!!!! i dont know how often it does it or for how long since i just got the car 2 weeks ago

1 - 18 of 18 Posts

ddouglas77

· #2 · Oct 23, 2007

criler said:
a wirling noise almost like a power grinder for about 15 seconds it did not stop even by removing the key

It is your starter, when you removed the key it was stilling spinning due to inertia (**** Newton and his laws of physics!!!). Check your starter to see if it is still bolted in and yes, all bolts are required, also check your flywheel, it could be you have several broken teeth off of it.

Alfasergio

Discussion Starter · #3 · Oct 23, 2007

so when you say check the flywheel

do you mean to say that when ever i hear that noise i am hurting/destroying my flywheel..... if so should i just replace the starter..

or how long till it finally breaks down and how expensive is it to replace...... also can it be a job for the diy ....i am only seventeen and my budget isnt the world

ddouglas77

· #4 · Oct 23, 2007

criler said:
do you mean to say that when ever i hear that noise i am hurting/destroying my flywheel..... if so should i just replace the starter.. or how long till it finally breaks down and how expensive is it to replace...... also can it be a job for the diy ....i am only seventeen and my budget isnt the world

I am saying when you hear that noise that the starter gear and flywheel are not connecting. Park the car, let it roll, stick in gear and let the engine spin a little and then try to start it. This will eliminate the starter part, it could be the starter has a messed up gear, but doubtful since it still spins while making that noise. I think, even on a slim to none budget, you can DIY and save yourself the trouble of diagnostics, however, the only cheap fix is if this is occuring only due to the starter being loose on the trans, otherwise, you are looking at either a new starter or flywheel.

Alfasergio

Discussion Starter · #5 · Oct 23, 2007

thanks alot ddouglas77

well thanks alot for all your help

you really helped me out there i was kinda worried ... well i still am but not as much

thank you

ddouglas77

· #6 · Oct 23, 2007

criler said:
well thanks alot for all your help you really helped me out there i was kinda worried ... well i still am but not as much

thank you

If there is ANYTHING you need, just ask, alot of us have spare parts to donate to fellow spider lovers. Don't worry, be happy!

conedriver

· #7 · Oct 23, 2007

criker,

When trying to start the car, turn the key off immediately if you hear grinding. Then, put the car in 4th gear and push it a few feet. This moves the flywheel so a new section of ring gear teeth are contacted by the starter. Giuliettas used to do this when worn.

Next, contact APE (Alfa Parts Exchange APEDIRECT.COM) for a rebuilt or used starter.

criler said:
its happened to me once before but today after a 10 min ride in my 1974 spider i returned home and accidently stalled it in the driveway but when i turned the key i did not even here the engine turn all i heard was this noise like something spining.... a wirling noise almost like a power grinder for about 15 seconds it did not stop even by removing the key could it be the starter the last time it happened i didnt stall i just stepped out to get some coffee at starbucks and it did it. but after it stops it will start normally...... help!!!!! i dont know how often it does it or for how long since i just got the car 2 weeks ago

ddouglas77

· #8 · Oct 23, 2007 (Edited)

conedriver said:
criker,

When trying to start the car, turn the key off immediately if you hear grinding. Then, put the car in 4th gear and push it a few feet. This moves the flywheel so a new section of ring gear teeth are contacted by the starter. Giuliettas used to do this when worn.

Next, contact APE (Alfa Parts Exchange APEDIRECT.COM) for a rebuilt or used starter.

Curious about something...That was what I told him to do as well, but how would that positively say it is the starter's fault and not the flywheel, since you are just rotating the flywheel? Either way, checking for damage to both (starter and flywheel) would be necessary. If he has missing teeth on the flywheel or crooked, damaged teeth on it, buying a new starter would just ruin the new/rebuilt starter gear. I'm curious too to know, if he has the 3 bolts in the starter-including the shouldered bolt.

Alfasergio

Discussion Starter · #9 · Oct 23, 2007 (Edited)

..........

so what your trying to tell me is that my flywheel / starter are probaly heading twords the end or are at the end..............how long before i have to repair???? and what are the damages that can be caused by holding it off alittle bit longer???. i dont feel any hesitation when shifting or signs of problems.
and if i do replace both how much would the labor probably be ?????
i can replace the starter but im not sure about the flywheel?.
another thing my alfa leaks alot of oil for example when i drove in to my drive way i saw little puddles were the alfa just whent through. for example when i stalled it i-t left a 3-5 inch puddle is this really exagerated or normal???

Alfasergio

Discussion Starter · #10 · Oct 23, 2007

oh.. and onother thing

instead of changing the whole flywheel could i just change the ring gear??

Jbutler

· #11 · Oct 23, 2007

I have had the same starter symptoms as you have (non Alfa) and it was due to the solenoid not engaging the starter gear. The starter gear moves back and forth and if it has not moved into contact with the ring gear the starter motor just turns as you describe.
Starters are pretty healthy motors and will run on for a bit from inertia as ddouglas mentioned.
Disconnect the battery, remove the starter and take it to a starter shop in your area for testing. While the starter is out you can sorta peek in there and check the ring gear.
The oil leak is something you should look for. Is it at the front of the engine? Back? Left Right? Put a clean piece of cardboard under the probable area and see if you can locate the source of the oil.

Jim

bshorey

· #12 · Oct 24, 2007

criler said:
its happened to me once before but today after a 10 min ride in my 1974 spider i returned home and accidently stalled it in the driveway but when i turned the key i did not even here the engine turn all i heard was this noise like something spining.... a wirling noise almost like a power grinder for about 15 seconds it did not stop even by removing the key could it be the starter the last time it happened i didnt stall i just stepped out to get some coffee at starbucks and it did it. but after it stops it will start normally...... help!!!!! i dont know how often it does it or for how long since i just got the car 2 weeks ago

I think you've got a couple of things wrong.

First, it sounds like the starter solenoid is acting up. That's the thing sitting on top of the starter that engages the starter teeth to the ring gear. To me, it sounds like the solenoid isn't completely engaging the starter. It could be that the sticking solenoid is also the cause of the spinning, even without the key engaged.

If it's not, then it sounds like you may also have a failing ignition switch. Sometimes, they can kind of weld themselves together, which causes the starter/solenoid to remain engaged.

The first thing to check is the solenoid. You want to disconnect the battery first, so you don't short anything out. Then remove the solenoid from the starter, make sure it's operating smoothly. Chances are it's gummed up, so clean it well with some WD-40, or replace it. I don't believe that you're supposed to lubricate the solenoid, but I could be wrong.

Try bench testing it too, apply voltage to the solenoid, make sure the lever slides in and out freely. If it doesn't, and you can't clean it to the point where it does, then replace it.

Wrt the ignition switch, I *always* recommend installing a starter relay in any older Alfa. The ignition switches just aren't up to the task. If you install a simple starter relay, it will reduce the load on the ignition switch to the point where it probably won't weld itself together anymore.

I wrote an article on relays many moons ago, but I think Kevin Redden posted something more recent to this BB a while back. If you can't find Kevin's post, PM me and I'll send along what I wrote up.

HTH,

bs

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spidryell

· #13 · Oct 24, 2007

Criler
Great that we have some new young owners reaching out to the BB. Try to join one of the local Alfa clubs. There is a lot of experience out there that can help you learn. Perhaps one of the BB members in the Bay Area can help. I don't know what level of skills you have or what access you have to tools and equipment. I know that at 17 I could turn wrenches (often to the point of breaking the bolts off) but I could not really troubleshoot.
Great cars, don't get discouraged.

Alfacliff

· #14 · Oct 24, 2007

I dont know the reason, but engines usually stop at the same position, so the teeth on the ring gear wear at that spot.
the solenoid could be bad also.
cliff

rogerspeed

· #15 · Oct 24, 2007

Does your '74 Spider still have SPICA? If so isolating the cold start solenoid circuit from the starter motor solenoid will cure the feedback problem.

Alfasergio

Discussion Starter · #16 · Oct 24, 2007

yes rogerspeed its still a spica

how do i do it though.... and will it have any negative feedback?
im thinking of replacing the starter anyway i just cant stand seeing my spider parked in the garage on the last sunny days............and also hearing the constant i told you so from my mom..... she wanted to get me a honda

but like anyone here would do i refused and got a job and bought myself the spider

....

rogerspeed

· #17 · Oct 25, 2007 (Edited)

criler said:
how do i do it though.... and will it have any negative feedback?
im thinking of replacing the starter anyway i just cant stand seeing my spider parked in the garage on the last sunny days............and also hearing the constant i told you so from my mom..... she wanted to get me a honda
but like anyone here would do i refused and got a job and bought myself the spider ....

easiest method: presently ignition switch wire goes to low voltage spade terminal on starter solenoid and to cold start solenoid. Per wes ingam clip this wire from starter solenoid to cold start solenoid: wire cold start solenoid from high amperege round output terminal (not the batterystarter input cable/terminal) on starter solenoid that wires into starter motor. If you want to make it more complicated you can put a relay and kill switch into this new circuit. eliminates negative feedback effects in either case. 74 Spider is a keeper, Mom knows just about everything else,

Alfasergio

Discussion Starter · #18 · Oct 25, 2007

thanks

ill try to do that tomorow when there is more sunlight ill tell you the results.

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