[JOEBMW]

Hello Everyone,

I need help. I recently bought a 1970 Giulia Super. I rebuilt the carbs and got her running very good. But now the clutch master cylinder broke. I havnt even driven her yet!!! I have been searching for a rebuild kit or a new unit but have run into some problems.

I ordered the rebuilt kit from internationalauto.com, but it is not the right one. Why? Because once i put the round seal around the piston i can not insert the piston back into the cylinder. I believe that the piston expands the seal and thereby not allowing me to insert the piston.

What should i do? I contacted Carl at internationalauto but he said that the kit i got should work and it is the only one that would work. And for more bad news, a new unit will not be in untill Dec. or January!!!

Someone Help!!!!

 

[twoliterlover]

Brake rebuild kit does not work on 1970 Giulia

Joe (BMW?): Two matters -- did you put in new brake fluid? And did you use Castrol or some American stuff that ruined the seals? Second, what is the system -- Ate or the old Girling. If the latter, then the Kit from Lucas Girling is #1974/xx (most of subsequent number immaterial since only a couple basic parts - a rear rubber cut off cup to block return when pressed, a small spring, and large front seal -- and a bellows for exterior are basic and fit universally). If the kit you have was one of those, then you have put in a couple too many parts (as it sounds like from you description of problem). Look at it again realistically and leave out a rear plastic piece. But if you used the wrong brake fluid I suspect you will have to rebuild most of system. And finally, a 1970 has to be European Version. In 1969 they came out with first of Spica units in US to pass emissions. And they did not sell Alfa again in US until 1971 with an upgraded Spica system. Your engine has carburetors, you say, so I suspect it is imported with European specs. Must be nice car. I hope you get your brakes to work so you can finally drive a real car (and forget that BMW stuff). Jay.

 

[Bill S]

Hi Joe,

As Jay said, you must have a european version Super. We didn't get any Supers in the States after '67. Just out of curiosity, does your car have the clutch and brake pedals coming up from the floor or down from the firewall? Also, what's the part # of the kit IAP sent you? That might help us get on the right track.

Bill

 

[JOEBMW]

Joe (BMW?): Two matters -- did you put in new brake fluid? And did you use Castrol or some American stuff that ruined the seals? Second, what is the system -- Ate or the old Girling. If the latter, then the Kit from Lucas Girling is #1974/xx (most of subsequent number immaterial since only a couple basic parts - a rear rubber cut off cup to block return when pressed, a small spring, and large front seal -- and a bellows for exterior are basic and fit universally). If the kit you have was one of those, then you have put in a couple too many parts (as it sounds like from you description of problem). Look at it again realistically and leave out a rear plastic piece. But if you used the wrong brake fluid I suspect you will have to rebuild most of system. And finally, a 1970 has to be European Version. In 1969 they came out with first of Spica units in US to pass emissions. And they did not sell Alfa again in US until 1971 with an upgraded Spica system. Your engine has carburetors, you say, so I suspect it is imported with European specs. Must be nice car. I hope you get your brakes to work so you can finally drive a real car (and forget that BMW stuff). Jay.

Thanks for the reply. I dont know what type of fluid is in there. I only owned the car for the past month and when i first passed the clutch pedal it didnt come back up

The pedals come through the floor. Yes the car was imported from italy. I dont know the brand of the master cylinder. I have attached pis below.

Hi Joe,

As Jay said, you must have a european version Super. We didn't get any Supers in the States after '67. Just out of curiosity, does your car have the clutch and brake pedals coming up from the floor or down from the firewall? Also, what's the part # of the kit IAP sent you? That might help us get on the right track.

Bill

Pedals are through the floor. The part number from IAP is 14057060.

 

[twoliterlover]

brake pieces

It is either a Girling or a Girling knockoff. And it looks like the seal you show is the correct size. It just looks larger since it gets crammed into the bore of the master cylinder and the skirt is what keeps it from leeking. LMA Castrol is brake fluid you need to use. If you could not get the pedal up from the floor I fear your other seals may already be toast, but it might be that the master cylinder just leaked dry. We will both pray the prior owner did not try to use Prestone or Bendix or some American brake fluid that ate out the rubber seals. How bad were those parts in the master cyclinder? The correct Lucas Castrol Girling repair kit is No 1974/xx, and you apparent got it. The two rubber parts crucial to fix master from your kit are clearly visable in your photos. The big rubber seal you said was too big is the right one. You will put the "flair" to the back and carefully fit it into the bore using the proper brake fluid to lubricate it as you work it in -- pressing the lip into the bore without tearing it. But first (1) you will fit the other smaller rubber cup on end of the piston shaft by unclipping and taking that apart. There is also a small spring under that in the kit (should look like a metric spring washer black spring material). That rear cup keep you from pushing the fluid back up into the reservoir when you appy the brake. It shuts off the intake. Replace the small spring if you find it in the kit. If not, be sure the spring is still strong and workable. (2) It is important to be sure the insides of the bore are smooth. I suspect you could handle that with emery cloth and your finger and do that before tearing the big seal trying to put it in. Be sure the flud lubricant on assembly is LMA Castrol to avoid either dryness or any cleaning solvent damage. If you are lucky the wheel cylinders might still be okay. If not get back to me and I will give you contact info for guy in midwest who sells Girling repair kits. I am not sure your brakes on the wheels themselves are disk all way around? At least on the back? If not, do you have double or triple shoes on front? Some of these European versions have different configurations. Lets just hope the kit fixes the problem so you can zoom around in your hot car. Should make you forget your BMW quickly. Jay

 

[Bill S]

That is the correct kit for the floor mounted clutch master. We only had them in '69 in the states. The IAP catalog indicates the kit is for a Benditalia or Bonaldi master. I just checked my spare Benditalia and it has that same closed "b" symbol as yours has on the side so I assume yours is also Benditalia, not Girling. Looks like IAP still sells the floor mounted clutch master cylinder: $189.50! Did you lubricate the seal with brake fluid as Jay mentioned? It looks like the right part to me.

 

[JOEBMW]

It is either a Girling or a Girling knockoff. And it looks like the seal you show is the correct size. It just looks larger since it gets crammed into the bore of the master cylinder and the skirt is what keeps it from leeking. LMA Castrol is brake fluid you need to use. If you could not get the pedal up from the floor I fear your other seals may already be toast, but it might be that the master cylinder just leaked dry. We will both pray the prior owner did not try to use Prestone or Bendix or some American brake fluid that ate out the rubber seals. How bad were those parts in the master cyclinder? The correct Lucas Castrol Girling repair kit is No 1974/xx, and you apparent got it. The two rubber parts crucial to fix master from your kit are clearly visable in your photos. The big rubber seal you said was too big is the right one. You will put the "flair" to the back and carefully fit it into the bore using the proper brake fluid to lubricate it as you work it in -- pressing the lip into the bore without tearing it. But first (1) you will fit the other smaller rubber cup on end of the piston shaft by unclipping and taking that apart. There is also a small spring under that in the kit (should look like a metric spring washer black spring material). That rear cup keep you from pushing the fluid back up into the reservoir when you appy the brake. It shuts off the intake. Replace the small spring if you find it in the kit. If not, be sure the spring is still strong and workable. (2) It is important to be sure the insides of the bore are smooth. I suspect you could handle that with emery cloth and your finger and do that before tearing the big seal trying to put it in. Be sure the flud lubricant on assembly is LMA Castrol to avoid either dryness or any cleaning solvent damage. If you are lucky the wheel cylinders might still be okay. If not get back to me and I will give you contact info for guy in midwest who sells Girling repair kits. I am not sure your brakes on the wheels themselves are disk all way around? At least on the back? If not, do you have double or triple shoes on front? Some of these European versions have different configurations. Lets just hope the kit fixes the problem so you can zoom around in your hot car. Should make you forget your BMW quickly. Jay

Thanks for the reply. I did everything you said. I have done a few rebuilds so i know the procedure. But thanks always. It seems as thought the cylinder i have is a benditalia. When i was installing the new seal i used Dot4 fluid and lots of it.

Dont know what else to say. Do you think that the fact that the car is a 1970 is the problem. Maybe alfa changed the size after 69?

 

[JOEBMW]

That is the correct kit for the floor mounted clutch master. We only had them in '69 in the states. The IAP catalog indicates the kit is for a Benditalia or Bonaldi master. I just checked my spare Benditalia and it has that same closed "b" symbol as yours has on the side so I assume yours is also Benditalia, not Girling. Looks like IAP still sells the floor mounted clutch master cylinder: $189.50! Did you lubricate the seal with brake fluid as Jay mentioned? It looks like the right part to me.

Yea they do sell the replacement unit, but they are backordered until the new YEAR!!! I cant wait that long.

If i cant find the soultion i might just call my family in italy and make they send me one from there

 

[ossodiseppia]

I would try wrapping something around the piston and seal to compress the seal. Then offer it up to the cylinder and push it in. Think of how you would compress piston rings to insert a piston in a block. I hope that helps.

 

[JOEBMW]

I would try wrapping something around the piston and seal to compress the seal. Then offer it up to the cylinder and push it in. Think of how you would compress piston rings to insert a piston in a block. I hope that helps.

Well, even if i did that i dont think that it would help. The real problem i have now is that even when i did PUSH the piston into the cylinder it would not move freely. Needed ALOT of force.

 

[JOEBMW]

Well after many hours of searching and calling places i found a place that acutally has them and they are not rebuilt, they are NOS units. I was quoted $225 for sending my unit out and get rebuilt (they bore it and everything), this NOS unit costed just under $200, so i figured i might as well get the real deal. Hopefully it will get here by this weekend.

Thanks for all the help!!!

 

[Bill S]

Joe,

That's great! You're gonna love this car. Be sure to post some pictures.

 

[ossodiseppia]

Well after many hours of searching and calling places i found a place that acutally has them and they are not rebuilt, they are NOS units. I was quoted $225 for sending my unit out and get rebuilt (they bore it and everything), this NOS unit costed just under $200, so i figured i might as well get the real deal. Hopefully it will get here by this weekend.

Thanks for all the help!!!

$225 to sleeve it and put in new seals? WOW! Who did you call?

 

[twoliterlover]

Dot 4 is NOT CASTROL LMA (but what about silicon?)

Clear now that the knock off master cylinder is NOT Girling. And upon closer inspection your system looks more like clutch cylinder of Girling system instead of brake master.

Regardless, it may well be that the bore size changed on these "B whatever" brakes, but still be careful on the brake fuild. Dot 4 is an American Specification, not one geared to natural rubber that was used in Italy a lot longer than we did here. I'd still get in touch with some outfit that has Castrol LMA brake fluid (unless you end up having to do entire system, in which case you might contemplate starting completely over with some silicon system). I recently found a 1964 2600 sprint that had been sitting for many many years. The only thing that still was really up to par was the hydralic system. Discovered the previous owner had problem early with brakes and clutch and was forced to replace all seals with rebuild kits. So he decided problem might be that he was too close to ocean and storing his car in wharehouse on the dock. He thought he would try to use the same same silicon based brake fluid he used in the hyster fork lifts at his shipping company. Certainly worked. Everything else was questionable but all those worked well. I could not understand why the fluid was different color. He showed me the hyster forklift brake fluid can. It was that color and silicon based. He certainly proved a point. But you can't mix and match. I've never had the guts to try it.

Jay

 

[JOEBMW]

$225 to sleeve it and put in new seals? WOW! Who did you call?

White Post Restoration. they are in VA. There are probably a whole bunch of other people/places that rebuild but i figured that nothing can beat a new unit.

 

[JOEBMW]

Clear now that the knock off master cylinder is NOT Girling. And upon closer inspection your system looks more like clutch cylinder of Girling system instead of brake master.

Regardless, it may well be that the bore size changed on these "B whatever" brakes, but still be careful on the brake fuild. Dot 4 is an American Specification, not one geared to natural rubber that was used in Italy a lot longer than we did here. I'd still get in touch with some outfit that has Castrol LMA brake fluid (unless you end up having to do entire system, in which case you might contemplate starting completely over with some silicon system). I recently found a 1964 2600 sprint that had been sitting for many many years. The only thing that still was really up to par was the hydralic system. Discovered the previous owner had problem early with brakes and clutch and was forced to replace all seals with rebuild kits. So he decided problem might be that he was too close to ocean and storing his car in wharehouse on the dock. He thought he would try to use the same same silicon based brake fluid he used in the hyster fork lifts at his shipping company. Certainly worked. Everything else was questionable but all those worked well. I could not understand why the fluid was different color. He showed me the hyster forklift brake fluid can. It was that color and silicon based. He certainly proved a point. But you can't mix and match. I've never had the guts to try it.

Jay

Yep, its the clutch master cylinder that is the problem. i thought you knew that?
How does this Silicon Fluid compare to DOT3/4 in the temp. rating?

 

[JOEBMW]

Joe,

That's great! You're gonna love this car. Be sure to post some pictures.

Thanks...i am excited. Hopefully i can drive it for the first time this weekend. Wont be a long drive, as the car is not insured or have plates. i throw some dealer plates on her and drive her to the body shop were the real fun beings. I am ripping her apart for a full respary. Not to mention take care of the cancer (rust).

 

[JOEBMW]

twoliterlover,

I just looked up the Castrol GT LMA fluid. i have never used this type of fluid. But i have used ATE Super Blue Racing Brake Fluid. Can i use the ATE stuff for the alfa? They both say that they exceed the DOT3/4 specs.

 

[Seinista]

C'mon guys.
I've been into older 105 like most of my life, and have ALWAYS used DOT4, never ANY problems. Also I have ALWAYS bought new cilinders, clutch as well as brake. Because a rebuild kit works for maybe a couple 1000 miles before it busts again. Why? because to use a rebuild kit would mean you have to regroove it first. Where the sleeve will have traveled will be wider and the 'edge' of that smaller and it will 'eat' your new cups.
Also it is far simpler to buy a new one and be done with the problem...
I've seen the centeline catalogue in the States, and over here in europe OKP parts, etc everyone sells 'em...

 

[papajam]

Yep, its the clutch master cylinder that is the problem. i thought you knew that?
How does this Silicon Fluid compare to DOT3/4 in the temp. rating?

I would NOT recommend silicone brake fluid (DOT5) in this clutch system. Seems the viscosity of the fluid is such that the master cylinder inlet seal may not seal 100% of the time (meaning that when it doesn't seal, you have no clutch hydraulics). I switched back to Castrol LMA (which exceeds DOT3 & 4 specs, BTW) and have never had a problem. Actually, been using LMA for decades.