[wutdhec]

Hi All,

I'm installing a 3.0L engine into my 1985 GTV6 and hoping to tap into this excellent forum's expertise again as I work through the issues. From what I've read this should be pretty much plug and play with the existing ECU, but I do have some things to do before I can drop in the engine. It has to pass CA smog checks, which I heard is not a problem with the 3.0 L and original 2.5 ECU.

A little history of this....I bought the '85 GTV6 back in 2011 in Dallas and drove it home. The car has some surface rust underneath but the body is solid with a fair respray. Although it seemed to pull strong when I test drove it, when I got it home I noticed a clattering sound when it was warmed up. It didn't sound like rod knock but I guess it was on its way there - every experienced mechanic suggested looking at the bearings. This looked like a good learning opportunity, so I pulled the engine and took it apart. I found the bearings and the crank were really worn out (not to mention the flex discs and drive shaft center bearing), so it was a good call to stop driving it.

A little background on the engine...I bought in September from Larry Sr. at APE. He said that it came from a Milano that was totalled back in 1989 with only around 14K miles. The engine supposedly sat in someone's living room for the next 20 years or so and in the mean time the owner had died (maybe someone here knows the original owner?). His widow eventually sold it to Larry. When I saw it I noticed that it really did look like a practically new engine. It turned freely and didn't seem damaged, so I took a chance and bought it. Larry was upfront about everything and I enjoyed dealing with him.

Here is what I'm planning to do in this project - I've got questions about a lot of this stuff since I'm a novice wrencher and I appreciate any and all thoughts:

1. Inspect and adjust valve clearances
- torque down the heads??
- replace valve cover gaskets (they look new!)?

2. Convert detensioner to mechanical type using this procedure
3. Replace detnsioner, timing belt, and water pump using the ones recently installed in my GTV6 engine (less than 2 thousand miles on those parts).
4. Remove injectors and send them to Hi Performance store for checking and cleaning
5. Replace all hoses to silicone type from Hi Performance store
6. Replace motor mounts (side ones are done). Rear one looks new, but should I replace it?
7. Move the throttle around the 3.0L intake plennum to match GTV6 layout
8. Use POR15 on the driveshaft and replace flex discs
9. Use POR15 in the engine compartment since there are some rusty places
10. Send radiator to be inspected and rodded
11. Look into replacing electric fans with SPALs
12. Clean gas tank? Gas sat in there a few years before I added Seafoam.
13. Keep or toss out non-op AC?
14. Upgrade headlight wiring with relays
15. Control arm refurbishing (has surface rust)?
- seems easier to do with engine out, but not an easy job for a novice

16. Replace rusty castellated nut on steering rack
17. Drop out entire rear suspension to refresh tired DeDion parts, remove rust, and replace shift bushings.
- inspect clutch at this time too
- inspect and replace rear brakes while its easy.
- replace rear tranny mount

18. Replace exhaust headers with 3.0 L style

Anything else I should do while the engine is out?

I plan to go through the list on this post and show progress plus ask a bunch of dumb questions along the way. If you guys know of some useful threads related to this, please let me know. I've done some searching and reading but might've missed some.

Thanks!

 

[Mark_toro]

Don't re-use your timing belt. Water pump - OK, but timing belt gets the most abuse at install and this is a cheap part.

I like the 164 mechanical de-tensioners, but some don't. Plenty of opinions here, you will need to chose your path.

I would just clean up the drive shaft with a little wire brush and then hit it with black spray paint - Por 15 is overkill and could be difficult on this part.

Do the Bi-Turbo fan conversion (Spal) - well worth it for good, fresh fans.

Replace the front trans mounts too - they are a weak spot.

Sounds like a fun project - full drive train removal means that you will find many little things to do along the way.

Looking forward to the thread.

 

[wutdhec]

Thanks Mark. I'll heed your suggestions on the timing belt, doesn't make sense to be penny-wise on that. I forgot about the front trans mounts - thanks for the reminder.

Regarding the driveshaft - I haven't actually used POR15 before so didn't know if it made sense or not on the driveshaft. My point of view was to ensure the rust stopped for good. So the brush + black spray paint is good enough?

 

[Duk]

Anything else I should do while the engine is out?

Have your engine and clutch flywheels lightened.
These things have massive amounts of rotating mass and is a big reason why, for their power to weight ratio, their performance is so ordinary.
The engines flywheel offset weight will need to be replicated once the flywheel is lightened, so the offset weight needs to be known before the flywheel is machined. Definitely a job for those in the know.

 

[wutdhec]

Checking Valve Backlash

Thanks Duk...sounds like a good idea but probably out of my budget. How much does it cost to do the flywheel set lightening?

In checking the valve backlash, I found in the manual it was 0.018"-0.0197" for intake and 0.0089" - 0.0098 for exhaust (seems its the same for both 2.5 and 3.0L).

All my intake valves came in within spec but my exhaust valves did not:

#1, #2, #4 : between 0.005" and 0.006"
#3 and #5: between 0.008" - 0.009"
#6: between 0.007" and 0.008"

I suppose the engine hadn't received the first valve adjustment, so maybe the exhaust valve adjustments are expected.

Just to be sure, does anyone know for sure the manual's specs I'm using are correct ?

The photos below show how pristine the cams and valve lifters are...I was relieved to see it look so nice and further confirm the motor's age. You can see some number marked near the exhaust valve follower...not sure what it meant but cool to see it hasn't aged out yet.

 

[Duk]

Thanks Duk...sounds like a good idea but probably out of my budget. How much does it cost to do the flywheel set lightening?

Sorry, I couldn't tell you. Different countries and all. I did my clutch flywheel, but had a fellow Aussie do the engine flywheel.
If you go ahead with it, and I'd recommend that you do (based on driving other cars with lightened flywheels, but not my 75 yet), then speak with Richard Jemmison/Alfar7.

 

[alfaparticle]

Richard lightened both of mine but I don't recall the cost. One of them, the engine I think, can be lightened more than the other so you could get that one done if your budget is tight.

 

[ZaXxon]

If it ain't broke.....

Half of the tasks on your list are not necessary. Unless you are having issues with a component, leave it be, and....... run it!

You don't have to address a component just because of surface rust. You can spray a light coating of oil on suspension components to keep the rust at bay. There are many recipes out there for the concoction.

Doing a wholesale disassembly of a car is allot of work, and it takes a long while to get the car sorted afterwards. Plan your jobs, and tackle one at a time. Then drive the car for awhile. Then tackle another job.

Each component and system will have certain troubleshooting techniques to determine if attention is needed. Educate yourself on these and do a rolling restoration.

I just don't want to see you get into a spot where you are overwhelmed and lose interest in the car.

Cheers!

 

[wutdhec]

Richard lightened both of mine but I don't recall the cost. One of them, the engine I think, can be lightened more than the other so you could get that one done if your budget is tight.

Thanks Duk and Ed...I've PM'd Richard and he gave a reasonable quote, I'll need to think about it a bit more.

Half of the tasks on your list are not necessary. Unless you are having issues with a component, leave it be, and....... run it!

You don't have to address a component just because of surface rust. You can spray a light coating of oil on suspension components to keep the rust at bay. There are many recipes out there for the concoction.

Doing a wholesale disassembly of a car is allot of work, and it takes a long while to get the car sorted afterwards. Plan your jobs, and tackle one at a time. Then drive the car for awhile. Then tackle another job.

Each component and system will have certain troubleshooting techniques to determine if attention is needed. Educate yourself on these and do a rolling restoration.

I just don't want to see you get into a spot where you are overwhelmed and lose interest in the car.

Cheers!

Thanks ZaXxon. I'm afraid of scope creep too...its crept quite a ways and taken me a while just to get to this point. The big question is do I embark on the suspension work or just stick to the engine. I definitely need to replace the shifter parts on the tranny and I heard that was a pain unless you drop it - which would then allow me to recondition the surface rust and install new rubber bits.

Any advice on if its reasonable possible to refresh the rear shift bushings w/o droping the suspension (using the "monkey shifter" kit from Performatek, unless someone has another recommendation)?

Thanks,

Hector

 

[Duk]

As Alfaparticle has said, the engine flywheel will give the best results. It's also the hardest 1 and the most expensive 1 to do.
The clutch flywheel could be done later, as it's much less work to get to. But while the engine is out.................... :wink2:

 

[wutdhec]

I think I'll sacrifice the ceramic coating on the headers to get the flywheel lightened - it was a semi-aesthetic thing anyways.

I'm also tempted to just use my 2.5L headers instead of getting 3.0L headers - anyone know how much horsepower I'll miss out on?

 

[Duk]

Put some photos of the 2.5 headers up with inlet and outlet measurements.

 

[wutdhec]

Put some photos of the 2.5 headers up with inlet and outlet measurements.

I'm away from the car for a few days - I can post that info in a few days. But, I think on other threads I've read that the big difference is in the wall thickness (leading to cracks in some cases), so we really need to measure volume. I guess this could be done by sealing one side and filling with water; I'm not sure how to convert larger volume into higher flow rate and horsepower though....

I was hoping Jim K's book discusses horespower comparison of a 2.5 header vs 3.0L header on a 3.0L motor, but I couldn't find anything. I'm not surprised he wouldn't even test a degenerate case like this though.

APE Larry said my butt dyno wouldn't feel the difference

 

[alfaparticle]

My understanding is that there is little difference. I have 2.5 manifolds on my 3L S motor and I don't think that it is worth seeking out Verde manifolds. I will eventually install CSC headers or something similar after Megasquirt and RJR cams.
Here is another option http://www.alfabb.com/bb/forums/alf...ted/388682-milano-gtv6-performance-parts.html

 

[Alfar7]

Headers

The link Ed posted are headers that connect to the stock alfa exh system.
That makes them basically useless for increased performance as the down pipes/cat/exh system is a congested mess.

If you are going to use such, cut off the flange and create 2.250 downpipes and an exh system of 2.5 inches out the car. Then the exhaust won`t be a problem.

I`ve done the same to stock V6 cast iron headers to improve extraction.

 

[NMMilano]

Any advice on if its reasonable possible to refresh the rear shift bushings w/o droping the suspension (using the "monkey shifter" kit from Performatek, unless someone has another recommendation)?

Thanks,

Hector

Just unbolt the front crossmember of the deDion and lower the whole assembly to install the Monkey kit. Yes it's worth it, my 130k Milano shifts much nicer. While you're at it install new front transmission mounts and cross bolt them.

 

[alfaparticle]

While you're at it install new front transmission mounts and cross bolt them.

And read Greg Sefarian's post earlier today in the Lemons/Chump Problems thread.

 

[wutdhec]

Thanks for all the advice guys, really appreciate it.

Regarding the headers, I need to ensure the car passes CA smog so I have to leave the cat in place. I think to save ca$h for now and considering the minimal benefit of larger headers when cats are present, I'll save the money so I can go for the lightened flywheels instead.

Thanks also Ed and NMMilano for info on the shift linkages...I'm going to have to digest the advice on that thread that Richard and others provided, sounds like some good alternatives.

 

[wutdhec]

Re-torque the heads?

Any thoughts on whether I should re-torque the heads given the young age of the motor and it sitting around so long?

 

[Mark_toro]

On an unknown motor, I'd retorque the heads and check the valve lash at a minimum. Easy enough to do and you know it is correct then