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Push hard and live
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Crazy people = customers/members/subscribers/human race.

Yup. It's one reason I'm tending toward immigrating to Argentina and living in a cabin in Patagonia. Fewer people, they don't speak much English, and an old guy can ask a young woman to dance the tango and nobody thinks it's creepy.

Meanwhile, so long as one is engaged in dealing with humans, it is best to think of them as "customers" than as "crazy people".
 

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USTA BE AN AD-MIN
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.....That donation was to the community, but they go through Jim, so he knows how much was donated, and that was why I hoped he would do that simple favor. That is all i wanted, And I do think that the conclusion that i was owed is simply your creative interpretation. My contributions include 5%of every sale through this forum going to the pig, the contribution of those prints for the DIYers, and a many more, and all I wanted was a favor. One that would have taken so much less time than most of the favors you do for others. Can you explain why you did not do me that favor? Can you point to anyone doing me that favor.
Then what you did might be considered a bribe. If you give something to someone and specify that you want a favor in return, that can be called a bribe.

Raodtrip ignores me, but anyone with influence would be harder for him to ignore or delete. Hence the request of you, and several other, to please post a request. A favor that was all I wanted. So anyone can ask you for advice, but I can't ask for that favor. I realized that three years ago.
Well, if he's ignoring you, you might want to ask yourself what you may or may not have done to cause this type of reaction.

You are correct, my comment was meant to cover all the moderation issues to date that have arisen lately. This thread, imo, arose out of moderation issues that went astray or were misguided from the beginning. In my time on the bb, I've never seen so many moderators, who were well-connected and knowledgeable Alfa people, in such a short time either voluntarily resign or be asked to step down, whether as a scape goat to protect someone else deemed more valuable, or to satisfy members that some sort of justice had been meted out as a remedy to a particular situation.
The AlfaBB Admin doesn't see that there is a conflict of interest. Papajam is a librarian and does not have anything to do with AROC policy making or enforcing. AROC and the AlfaBB are two separate entities and have no affiliation.

Do you feel that CEOs and/or members of boards of directors at large corporations who are members of other boards of directors have a conflict of interest?

It makes no sense to think that there is any conflict with Jim being the librarian.

Crazy people = customers/members/subscribers/human race.

Yup. It's one reason I'm tending toward immigrating to Argentina and living in a cabin in Patagonia. Fewer people, they don't speak much English, and an old guy can ask a young woman to dance the tango and nobody thinks it's creepy.

Meanwhile, so long as one is engaged in dealing with humans, it is best to think of them as "customers" than as "crazy people".
If there is no internet access there, I'll be happy to help you pack.:D
 

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Administrator
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Discussion Starter #63
The moderators would like to thank everyone for their input. We are listening. On the topic of this thread - Vendor/Product Reports, here is our plan.

  1. Eliminate the word "bashing" (too much negative connotation)
  2. Make the following our suggestions for vendor/product reports (especially when problems arise). Since we have no desire to squash free speech anyone is thus free to post a complaint about a vendor. These guidelines simply make one's complaint 'complete' in ensuring that both sides of a story are included.
Vendor/Product Report Suggestions:
  • You should first attempt to resolve the problem by contacting the vendor. If the vendor does not reply after a reasonable amount of time *or* refuses to right a wrong then tell us (meaning the BB) that.
  • Include the vendor's response (or lack of...).
  • Your report should be a simple statement of facts.
 

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Push hard and live
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So, a moderator's opinion appears to be that commonly held views regarding conflict of interest don't apply here. OK. To respond, a person on a board of directors for a company would be in conflict of interest by serving on another board for a company that served the same market. Of course, it is not a conflict if they are in unrelated fields.

And..

He would like member-subscribers to leave the BB if they disagree with some of his views, even if those disagreements are expressed rationally and without insult.

Years ago I observed what happened in clubs vs for-profit operations. In the latter, the requirement for profit meant that directors and managers had to meet a high test of professionalism. Their contribution had to improve the bottom line, or they would be replaced. This always required an intense focus on the customer, ensuring that their needs and wishes were held high and met better than the competition could do.

In clubs where no profit requirement existed, people would volunteer for key positions, getting elected to boards and offices. These people were often, if not always, rejects from the for-profit world. By volunteering to be the club president they got to wield mighty power and construct rules and procedures ad infinitum. There was rarely any thought given to the members, as they were thought more of as subjects to be ruled than customers to be cherished.

I don't know enough about the history of the BB, or the individuals to suggest the above description fits anyone here. I have seen it play out over and over again anytime there are volunteers in positions of authority. It's a sad comment on human nature, I fear.

Brian - I promise if I move to Patagonia, I'll ensure that there is internet access and will do my very best to stay in touch.
 

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If you would like to discuss this offline thru PM, I would be happy to. Thanks.
This is exactly the problem, Brian. The festering problem currently ailing the BB is a persistent lack of transparency in the decision making process. There is entirely too much secrecy, to much obvious behind-the-scenes maneuvering, too much decisions-made-in-a-vacuum going on here. Is the business of the Alfabb so criticially important that moderators have to treat it as though it was a state secret?

As an example, what I hear from moderators is a uniform defense of moderator policies which are made in secret. Maybe I've missed something but I haven't seen one instance of a moderator publicly criticising a policy decision. Even during the worst of Ruedi's member bashing, not one moderator publicly repudiated what was clearly abusive behavior. Why is this? Why is it so necessary to give the impression that everyone moves in lock-step? Surely moderators have their own opinions about things so why not share them with the rest of us?

Perhaps if moderators had disagreed more openly, it's possible the recent moderator caused excesses wouldn't have happened.

To put it more directly, if you have a moderator-policy related issue with Todd, put it out here so the rest of us can see it. Given our recent history, Todd made a rather cogent criticism concerning supression of information. If you have a defense put it out here so the rest of can see what you have to say.
 

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Guidelines re: Vendor Bashing/Conflict of Interest

The AlfaBB Admin doesn't see that there is a conflict of interest. Papajam is a librarian and does not have anything to do with AROC policy making or enforcing. AROC and the AlfaBB are two separate entities and have no affiliation.

Do you feel that CEOs and/or members of boards of directors at large corporations who are members of other boards of directors have a conflict of interest?

It makes no sense to think that there is any conflict with Jim being the librarian.
While I have been without an Internet connection today, you guys have certainly been busy...

First, let me address librarianship -- I have no idea if Jim is a degreed librarian or was simply bestowed with the title because he maintains the library.

Secondly, the AROC By-laws address conflict of interest under the vice-presidential category dealing specifically with the publisher and that there could be a conflict of interest. That does not mean that others in the organization cannot have a conflict of interest, potential, real, or borderline. The recent court rulings state that even potential conflicts of interests should be considered as actual conflicts of interest.

Further the AROC Policy and Procedures deal specifically with the library and that the information is available only to members except that non-members have to pay a fee, which is not disclosed. I find it hard to believe that substantial records are being kept to prevent non-members from receiving information from the AROC library via the bb for free.

Why would autoguide care about a conflict of interest? They don't, they may be getting free information furnished from a source that should not be free to all members of the bb because they are not all AROC members, unless and until AROC decides to put an end to it. But then perhaps, autoguide carries "conflict of interest" insurance. However, based on how they have solved other bb issues, I seriously doubt it."

Brian, you are not going to get me to post information about previous conflicts here on the bb that others have alluded to that has not been made public but that I have in written form. The moderators may like to think that they are acting with transparency, but that is so far from the truth...what is fair for one should be fair for all. But it is obvious there is a hierarchy of moderators, where some hold a protected status.

As for your question about CEOs serving on multiple boards. When this happens it is normally not in the same industry, they have to sell their stock, and eliminate any "look of conflict of interest," including if they have a relative that works in the industry, where they could be unduly influenced. Those that try and do it, many times get caught up in what appeared on the surface innocent and when discovered ends up in court.

A final thought, I lived with conflict of interest constantly while married to Pat because of his contacts. Things he heard or was told by one manufacturer that he could not share with another, including things that he heard directly from ARI that he could not share with AROC or write in the Alfa Owner. One of the hardest lines not to cross was while he was freelancing and working for various automotive companies. He had to make sure that he wasn't working on competing projects or at the same place on the vertical ladder, meaning he could take on a marketing writing job for one manufacturer and a service training project for another, but not the same for both. My opinion is that Jim is acting in a horizontal position for both entities.
 

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Premium Member
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To those small number of members that feel so strongly that Jim, et al are unqualified and/or unfit to moderate the BB, I would suggest that they file a formal complaint with the owners of AlfaBB citing and providing proof of the supposed nefarious conduct of moderators. You can start with Marco Dator at [email protected]. We'll see if they agree with you.

And instead of carping about imaginary and tortured definitions of "conflicts of interests," librarian "ethics," etc, file a formal complaint with AROC USA. We'll see how the AROC leadership feels about it.

Fish or cut bait, ladies and gentlemen.

The group of current moderators, Jim, Brian, Steve, Glenn, et al have done a great job of moderation and contributed light years more meaningful content to the AlfaBB and its members than the petty whinging of the few that have been so vociferous recently.
 

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Push hard and live
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John...

I may not have a lot of knowledge, and I certainly don't have years on the BB, so my reference is limited. However, Brian offered to pack my bags if I'd move to somewhere where there was no internet. Seemed kind of clear that he'd rather I leave, and take whatever knowledge I had with me.
 

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I've been to Patagonia (2002-3). We were quite surprised to find extensive, fast i'net access from Bariloche all the way down. I'd visit or move their in a heartbeat too, it's a most beautiful place.

Far from the struggle and bitterness that this board has become over the last twelve months or so which frankly is keeping me away.
 

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Really? Cite your evidence.
John,

It is simply the tone I pick up, an opinion. The two above posts can be an example of what I am picking up here. I have no issues with anyone here, just observing. I am no Alfa genius, but offer what I can when I think it may be of any value. I would hate to see some of the more knowledgeable sign off.
 

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Administrator
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Discussion Starter #75
Again, I wish to thank everybody for their input regarding the original topic (which was "Guidelines for Vendor/Products Reports"). I have edited the "Cardinal Rules" post which was placed in Off-Topic. I have suggested to my fellow moderators that those rules (to me, guidelines seems a better term to use) should not be buried in Off-Topic but perhaps (also) posted in more visible areas.

I am going to now close this thread.
 
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