[waltindixie]

Prior to everyone crucifying me in writing, I am sure this question will be controversal and offend many a purist.

But, I am curious none the less:

What is the level of difficulty to swap the traditional GTV6 2.5 litre motor out and replace her with a non-Alfa power plant?

The benefits of such a transgression would be as follows, in order of importance:

1. Better Reliability
2. Less Preventative maintenance
3. Less expensive maintenance
4. Better performance

Obviously, the 3.0 Milano power plant will fit. But then again, this motor is set up for the transaxle as well.

Does the tight proximity of the engine bay require and tighter angle V6 (e.g. 30 degree v. 45 degree)?

Would any of the older Ford or Chevy V6's work?

Would they need to be fuel injected or could they be carbuerated?

Would a drive shaft have to be manufactured?

Does anyone have any experience with this or can you direct me to an individual that might be able to help.

Walt Mattil
(will probably burn in hell for the mere suggestion of doing such)
Birmingham, Alabama

 

[jthraen]

Anything is possible. How much do you plan to spend on the transplant? I have a friend that is putting a Chevy 350 into a Morris Minor at a price of around $25k, so like I said, anything is possible.

The real question is why would you want to? The V6 in the GTV6 is so sweet, the sound of the exhaust is worth the price of admission alone. It is extremely torquey, as I can drive bumper to bumper traffic from 15 mph to 70 mph with out changing gears.

The engine is much more reliable than would be led to believe by reading the digest. Remember, people are only posting when they have problems, not when things are working.

I'd say that the few maintenance issues are much smaller than amount of work it would take to transplant any engine, except maybe the 3.0 from the Verde.

It may not matter to you, but I cannot imagine an engine that would provide a better combination of horsepower, torque, gas mileage and SOUND! I find my self looking for tunnels and canyons just to bounce the sound off of.

Oh, and by the way, if you are still interested in buying my GTV6, too bad...I would not be able to sleep knowing that I sold a perfectly good, rust free car to someone with intent of hacking it up. I hope the Atlanta cars are sold when you get there, too!

 

[waltindixie]

Jeff:

Since you were so candid in your response, please do me the courtesy of allowing me to reply in kind.

I am disappointed in the entirity of your post.

It is one thing to be passionate: It is another to be ignorant and rude.

I am no neophyte Alfa owner and am well aware of the advantages and disadvantages of the powerplant in the GTV6.

However, in your self-imposed role of 'Judge, Jury, and Executioner', you chose to 'shoot from the hip' and make a very uninformed assumption.

You know Jeff, I am curious how NASA put a man on the Moon. But guess what? I'm not planning on actually going?

(Note: I thought I should clarify that prior to Jeff asking me to bring him back a Moon rock)

Is this the manner is which the law is prosecuted in California? I've never tried a case there, but I know that if I were to cite a California case in any state other state (i'll give your Oregon and Washington), i'd be laughed out of the courtroom.

Perhaps you can sell the car to O.J. Simpson?

I wonder how many GTV6 owners disconnected their inertia switches in the earlier models? I assume by your standard, they should be crucified? And those whom replaced the tensioner with a non-OEM Alfa part? Oh my God-let them be stoned! Or the aftermarket head gaskets? Non-Alfa Spark plug wires?Replacement dash boards to replace the craked ones.

My God. You should head up a lynch mob, hunt these people down and kill them.

I'll bet your parts vendor loves to see you coming?

But gee, thanks for your unsolicatated endorsement of the benefits of the powerplant. Perhaps you should send a copy to all those individuals on the web whom are selling or parting out the GTV6s that quote in the advertisement 'not running'. I'm sure they'll feel much better.

(Oh, i'm sorry. By your standard, these sub-humans should never have been allowed to own such a marvel of engineering. Perhaps you can spear-head the passing of this federal law?)

How dare you judge me! You should be ashamed.

As to your Alfa, best of luck selling her.

As to my search, i'll find what i'm looking for.

If this post offended you, it was intended to. I'll remind you of the Golden Rule-Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.

You got exactly what you deserve.

I'm a Christian and i've already forgiven you. But I cannot say I like you very much.


Good Luck sir and Good Day.

Walter Christian Mattil
CPT EN
U.S. Army (At least until i'm released from the mobilization and can return to my life)

 

[jthraen]

will probably burn in hell for the mere suggestion of doing such

Wow! I am really sorry. I thought my response showed my passion for Alfa's. It was not intended to be an attack on you or anyone who modifies their Alfas.

I find that the AlfaBB is a fun and entertaining extension of my passion for Alfas. I apologize if anyone was offended by my post.

 

[John M]

As my Dad would say to me and my brothers growing up....and you have to understand.....he was a full bird Colonel in the USAF.....and then later in life a Warden of a prison.......

"What in the hell is going on here?! I am going to kick both of your A$$es!"

First, I don't know what has transpired between Walt and Jeff except for what is posted here on the board.

Walt, you should know that Jeff is right. Conversion to another power plant is just a non-feasible idea. Unless you won the powerball drawing or you are the son of Sam Walton, just get it out of your head. Surely you do realize you just cannot drop a chevy/ford/dodge engine into another make without significant fabrication. The entire powertrain would have to be fabricated or transplanted w/ fabrication. The tranny, the exhaust, the injection or carbs, the ignition, the drive shaft, etc. Your top three reasons to me say.....money. You want to avoid the expense of repairs and maintenance. You certainly don't want to see the price tag on that kind of conversion.

The way I see it, you have two choices. You can either get you the GTV6 you want and go ahead and rebuild her so she will be reliable and have the performance you want. You know, there are a great number of options when it comes to adding performance to these cars. You say you are aware.....but are you really? Hell, Calloway did the intercooled turbo on some. There are options for performance without ripping it all out. And the engines are fairly bulletproof when put together correctly. Your other option would be to find another car altogether that has the "out of the box" engine/reliability/performance you are looking for and accustomed to.

In regards to attacking Jeff, you have gone way overboard from my perspective. This is a fun board. You are on your second post and attacking this guy for giving you the correct answer that you just can't stand to stomach. From knocking on California , a lynch mob , and calling him ignorant and rude....jeez o peet. I hate to say it, but it was your last post for what ever reason that was ignorant and rude and seemingly had a flare of schizophrenia.

I certainly don't get this drama, but if you are going to continue to present your case in this manner, please take the "Dixie" out of your name. This attitude is certainly not representative of the South.

John M

 

[alfa_chan]

I agree with Jeff too, nothing is better than an Alfa 2.5V6 in a GTV6, maybe a Ferrari or Masaerati engine?

Reliability? I think Alfa V6 are one of the most reliable engine you can find if you properly maintain it.

Less preventive maintenance? Driving it hard everytime and changing oil every 3000 miles doesn't sound too hard for me.

Less expensive maintenance? 91 octane gas and $20 oil change doesn't sound too bad to me.

Better performance? In what sense? HORSEPOWER? Give me a V8 muscle car anytime or a STi please

Am I a purist? Nope. I was actually thinking of putting a Honda S2000 on my GTV before I drove my own GTV for the first time. Later I changed my mind. If I want S2000 engine, I should get a S2000.
An Alfa for me now - is 99% the engine. Engine is the soul of any car, I bought the Alfa engine, and the nicely designed Bertone body came with it for free.

As far as I am concern, fitting an American V8/V6 will be a PIA. They're not designed to package in a tight space to begin with (American cars are HUGE), they're not space efficient. And all the plumbing, the transaxle, the width, the height, the exhaust... blah blah blah...
YES, it can be done. But I would buy a tube framed car, drop in a V8, and wrap it around with GTV6 fiberglass bodywork. Just like a RWD NASCAR Ford Taurus.

The closest thing that might fit might be the V6 engine on the Nissan 350Z and G35. But, I don't want to know how much that engine is.
Maybe an engine from a 90s Nissan 300ZX. But as far as I am concerned, a $5000 engine rebuild at 120,000 mile is not cheap for me.
Hmmm.. there is not that many V6 RWD out there anymore.

Just my two cent.

---------

And those whom replaced the tensioner with a non-OEM Alfa part? Oh my God-let them be stoned! Or the aftermarket head gaskets? Non-Alfa Spark plug wires?Replacement dash boards to replace the craked ones

We were talking the changing the heart and soul of a car, is that correct? Not just its clothes or sunglasses.

I'm using AGIP gas on my GTV, btw. I asked my friends in Europe to send them to me in big cans

---------
And CPT Walter, please take it easy on your post.

I clearly have no idea what happened between you and Jeff before. But on your second ever post you are insulting all the people on the board. And attacking a member who gave you a very honest and helpful and humorous reply??

I don't quite get the US ARMY part, btw.
---------
Jeff, promise me your GTV6 will go to a GOOD good home, please please.

 

[Alex Csank]

Hmmmm...methinks we got 'baited'!

Walt, its inappropriate to use 'rank' on this board. I too am a member of the military. My rank is LCDR (that's Lieutenant-Commander, or Major equivalent for you Army types), but that's what I have done for a living for the past twenty years...it has NOTHING to do with this board. Using your rank really won't impress anyone here.

As far as the offence you took to the comments you got...well, all I can say is that you should have anticipated that people interested in Alfas might find it distasteful to want to replace the 'heart' of an Alfa with something more agricultural. I would imagine that you'd get a similar response from the Porsche, BMW, Ferrari, etc communities too, if you were asking a similar question about one of their vehicles.

Now, about your question: The fabrication and work required to make another engine fit into a GTV6 would be very difficult, especially because of the front-engine, rear transmission (transaxle) of the Alfetta (116/119) design. I don't think it would improve anything and it would end up being bery costly. Additionally, a 'one-of' car, fabricated without the benefit of factory support usually ends up being a very high-maintenance vehicle that can only be worked on by those that constructed it. The Alfa drivetrain is virtually 'bulletproof' if maintained regularly.

The only reason why so many Alfa V6s seem to be having trouble and experience costly repairs is because as the cars age and their values decline, their owners tend to not spend much time worrying about things like timing belt and oil changes, which are still just a part of the normal maintenance of many 'new' cars. Additionally, the last rear-drive V6 Alfa imported into the USA is now 14 years old. Perhaps you can tell me what other 14 year-old car model is more reliable? A 1989 Camry? A 1989 Honda? A 1989 Buick? The fact is, all older cars require regular routine-maintenance.

There are many folks (including me) who drive V6 Alfas with over 100,000 miles...FAST! A fellow named Bernie in Texas drives a GTV6 with over 400,000 miles! Oh, and he has been known to exceed the posted speed limit on occasion (EVERY DAY!).

The bottom line? It's not a good idea.

Now, please go and buy yourself an Alfa to love and cherish...or go buy something else that will please you. Just don't be so 'sensitive'...it is very un-gentlemanly.

Cheers,

 

[papajam]

My view is that if waltindixie wants to transplant an engine into a GTV6, then by all means go for it! To me, it's not a question of 'why', but 'why not'. I admire someone who has the desire and passion to explore such a project. Without such projects, there would be no Cobras, Sunbeam Tigers, Jensen Interceptors or Lancia Scorpions to name just a few.
To own an Alfa is to be unique. But to build a customized, one-off Anything is to be at the top rung of the unique ladder. Where would all the street rods be if everyone cried "foul" at the thought of an engine swap?
Go ahead Walt, make your custom. I hope it's as unique as this '41 Willys powered by a V8 Flatty!

 

[Azzurri GTV]

I agree with Jim! Waltindixie if you wanna swap a different engine in your Alfa by all means do it. I would leave the v6 Alfa engine in there but that's my opinion. Don't listen to all these guys, they would want to leave the same engine in there because they are true Alfisti's So once again if you wanna swap a different engine do it, i personally like to see what conversions people do in a Alfa.

 

[Alex Csank]

Jim & Gian Paolo,

OK, so you wanna see Walt swap the engine in a GTV6 for a small block buick? Maybe a Turbo engine from a GNX? What about a pushrod small block V8? Or better yet...how about a crate motor from GM or a small block Ford 'mod' motor?

To do that...or ANY kind of a swap is a hell of a lot of work in any car, never mind a car with a rear transaxle! I bet even Jim (whose Alfa mechanical knowledge I have a lot of respect for) would have a great deal of difficulty matching the crank/flywheel of a car that was intended to have a transmission attached to it with the driveshaft of a GTV6!

But, even if Walt was willing to do that, let's have a look at his original questions:

1. "What is the level of difficulty to swap the traditional GTV6 2.5 litre motor out and replace her with a non-Alfa power plant?" To that question, I would have to give it a 10 out of 10 on the difficulty scale (compared to re-building a broken engine for example).

2. "Does the tight proximity of the engine bay require and tighter angle V6 (e.g. 30 degree v. 45 degree)?" Because you would have top fabricate new frame crossmembers anyway, I don't think that the issue would be external size so much, although I would definitely measure every angle very carefully before deciding on an engine.

3. "Would any of the older Ford or Chevy V6's work?" I don't think that anyone has tried that, so I don't know. But, frankly, if I were to do something like this, I would try and replace the Alfa V6 with something better, not something worse...and those older Ford and Chevy V-6s ARE worse!

4. "Would they need to be fuel injected or could they be carbuerated?" If you went to all the trouble of doing this swap... you could have carbs if you really want, but a good fuel injection system would be much better!

5. "Would a drive shaft have to be manufactured?" The driveshaft would be the least of your worries! I suppose that if you did it right, you could keep the original driveshaft (or at least the rear section).

6. Does anyone have any experience with this or can you direct me to an individual that might be able to help? Nope. Never heard of anyone trying this. Wouldn't want to do it myself. I just don't see any return.

Now, for the kicker. Walt wrote:

"The benefits of such a transgression would be as follows, in order of importance:"

"1. Better Reliability"
Not in a one-off! It would be much less reliable in my view! All that fabrication would mean you would be much more likely to have breakdowns more often.

"2. Less Preventative maintenance"
What? Just about every engine with timing belts needs them changed every now and again! GM, VW, Audi, Ford, Chrysler, etc...all have maintenance issues that are about the same as the Alfa V6.

"3. Less expensive maintenance"
OK, so you spend about $10K doing the swap and then you save money on parts? Actually, Alfa parts are pretty inexpensive if you ask me!

"4. Better performance"
Well, I suppose if you got a light-weight 4 Cam aluminum V6 from a cool donor car - none come to mind immediately...but, if you added the weight of a heavy pushrod engine in the front, the performance would more likely decrease.

So, in the end...Walt isn't looking to build a 'hot-rod'...he's just convinced that the Alfa 2.5V6 is unreliable and expensive to maintain...and I think that he is mistaken if he thinks that a swap would make it easier and less expensive.

Cheers,

 

[papajam]

I agree with you Alex. It would be a massive undertaking. Something my limited fabrication skills would not allow me to do. Nor would I want to. But I think it would be a great thing to see.
I also think that changing the engine to improve reliability is slightly misplaced. The Alfa V6 is, when properly maintained, virtually bulletproof. But she's a pretty expensive date. Performance improvement? Depends on the engine choice. I'm kind of partial to Chevy 302s myself. As far as the transaxle hookup issues? That's easy. If you don't use it, it ain't an issue!
Bottom line is, I wouldn't do an engine swap for the original reasons given. But to do a one-off custom? Absolutely!!

 

[JoeCab]

I always thought the best engine swap option for a GTV-6 would be... an Alfa V8 from a Montreal or any of the assorted V8 Tipo 33 cars. It would still be a bastard but at least it would be all Alfa.

Joe

 

[alfa_chan]

When I thought of a transaxle, the Corvette C5 always come in mind.
How about a Corvette V8?
Was the C4 transxle too? And what model name is the corvette that had a LOTUS or Yamaha DOHC V8? Help please.

I was looking at the last gen 300ZX Twin Turbo engine today, might be an interesting swap. That engine is pretty small compared to a V8. But that might not be a reliable engine - according to my personal experience. And a swap with all those ECU engines might be harder than programming the CPU in the Apollo.

 

[papajam]

..... And what model name is the corvette that had a LOTUS or Yamaha DOHC V8? Help please.

If memory serves, and it doesn't always, the engine was a Lotus design, built by Mercury (of outboard engine fame) and dubbed the 'LT5'.

 

[67GTV]

Yeah I was wondering about the Yamaha reference. Yamaha supplied engines for the first generation Taurus SHO. The cars were produced in relative limited numbers because Yamaha could not keep up with the demand.

 

[italcarguy]

i have always wanted to put a small block ford and 9 bolt rear end in a gtv that has gtam flares.

 

[Alex Csank]

You know what? I think that Walt may have been just baiting us all! He hasn't responded to any of the now two pages of responses (other than Jeff's first reply), so do you think maybe he 'got us'?

 

[Faust]

I have given some thought to a swap in my '79 GTV. I found that an Australian hot rod shop produces an adapter to mate the SBC to the Spider gearbox, this might be of some help if one were to keep the transaxle.
After further thought I am proceeding with an Olds Quad 4. The reasoning is more horse power (200 with factory parts), size and weight. This should leave sufficient room for A/C.
My experience with Mopars suggests that a successful V8 swap would require losing the torsion bars. As to the transaxle, I would lose it. My thoughts were a Jaguar rear end. Mounting it to the body should not be difficult. It already has inboard brakes, so fabrication (other than the mount) would only involve joining the Jaguar shafts to the Alfa shafts. An experience driveshaft shop sould not find this much of a challange.
I have a V8 Datsun Z, I love it.

 

[144]

HERETIC!!!! GET THE TORCHES!!!

 

[JoeCab]

What I don't understand is why anyone would want a Quad4 in an Alfa when a TwinSpark can get very close to those HP figures (chip, cams, and headers ?) and still feels and sounds like an Alfa!

Every Quad4 engine I've ever felt makes nice power but is rough as a corn cob. Not something I'd want in an Alfa.