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Discussion Starter #1
Came over this interesting video from Hockenheim, showing a race between these interesting cars.

The 12V GTV gives the much more powerful 75 24V a good and entertaining race!

 

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First of all, it is easy for the follow car to look like he is constantly "reeling in" the lead-car going in to every corner; it is a natural effect when viewing in car video of a follow-car on the track. View the lead-car’s rear-facing video sometime… Look at it from a different perspective and one will see the lead-car "walking away" from the follow car coming OUT of every corner...

Secondly, there is SO much that plays in to this as well on a track; disparate specs in the respective suspension setups, braking capabilities of the two cars and then the big one - driver skill and temperament! The lead car sure seems tentative about his / her commitments to the line!!!

Here's the big one; THERE IS NO 330 HORSEPOWER budget 3.2 liter 24v Alfa engine out there! The guy MIGHT see 280-290 at the crank and he MAY have seen 240 to 250 at the wheels. THE BEST we ever saw from the built 3.2 GTA was 250-255 at the wheels and yes - here we are at about 290-295 at the crank - depending on what you believe for driveline losses! Forget 330 at the anything; We KNOW what that takes and it is NOT coming from 3.2 litres.

The 12v 3.0 - built - at 240...? What? At the wheel? At the crank? If that number was at the crank, then we're talking maybe 180 at the wheels? Trust me, there is NO way that the lead car is a 3.2 that has 2-anything or 3-anthing at the wheels and the 3.0 is hanging with him that way - not unless it is my daughter driving the lead car and it has stock brakes and a stock suspension...

To be clear, I only call bull**** here on ONE ASPECT AT A TIME (and maybe it is the follow car that has a great deal more than 180 horses…?) I vote for the lead car that DOES NOT have 330-ANYTHING!
 

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Ah-HAAAA!!!!

There is was - right at minute 2:00 - turbo-flames.... ;) And again at 2:20...

There is SO much bull**** on the internet, it makes my eyes water! I know-I know - NA cars CAN have them too, but not that much and not that consistenly. Again - no privateer 3.2 Alfa V6 is going to make 330...

And then at 3:08 - agricultural experience - my point about the differences in skill...

Primal scream at 5:16 - ***!? :confused: :eek: :D :D :D

At 5:30 - the guy in the 75 is a moron - sorry if it is somebody here, but dude - you are danger to yourself and to others!
 

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Discussion Starter #4
That video got you triggered, JJ it seems :)

However the Alexis Walter videos have until now been serious enough to be believed! He loves to drive the GTV6 on track. On that clip it seems he is a more professional driver than the one of the 75. Also on the straight the 75 is pulling away. The GTV on the other side has better line at turn in before corners.
About the power of 330Hp for the 75 is not so unbelievable. In Europe when talking of Hp its usually about engine HP. So I think this is. Taking the 3,2L GTA engine from 250Hp to 300-330HP should be entirely possible!

Here a link to the first race which is not so dramatic.

 

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my money is on jungle justice Lol!!!!!
 

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I Know the 2 : Alexis Walter and Francis Niel, the 3.2 as this power. It ins't a stock GTA moteur, it is a race motor build with a GTA motor and spécific piston, camshaft, ......
 

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Then it is down to the driver, brakes and suspension...

Place THE SAME driver in the 3.2 24v 75 AND in the 12v 3.0 GTV6, with the SAME suspension and the SAME brakes and it would be NO contest if - and that is a BIG if, the 3.2 DOES have 330 ATC and the GTV6 DOES only have 240 ATC...)

It would be NO contest - given equal setups and the same driver!

Yes, 330 ATC from the 3.2 GTA is possible, but in a FULL-RACE build and for LOTS of Euros...

What about the flames?
 

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Discussion Starter #8
Then it is down to the driver, brakes and suspension...

Place THE SAME driver in the 3.2 24v 75 AND in the 12v 3.0 GTV6, with the SAME suspension and the SAME brakes and it would be NO contest if - and tyhat is a BIG if, the 3.2 DOES have 330 ATC and the GTV6 DOES only have 240 ATC...)

It would be NO contests - given equal setups and the same driver!

yes, 330 ATC from the 3.2 GTA is possible, but in a FULL-RACE build anmd for ZOTS of Euros...

What about the flames?
Well, as yo know on track there is never exactly the same with all components and drivers etc.!

Matter of fact I am also looking for 300+ Hp for a 3,2GTA engine in my GTV 6, so I expect to arrive there. Encouraged by the results from tuners like Beninca etc.
About flames out of the exhaust at gearshift it could just be an intensional adjustment of the injection. Usually used for cooling the engine etc.
 

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About flames out of the exhaust at gearshift it could just be an intensional adjustment of the injection. Usually used for cooling the engine etc.
Before the Aussie V8 Supercars changed to E85 (85% Ethanol blend) fuel and smaller tanks (120 litres down to 75), they used to have big long trailing throttle flames out the exhausts.
But but with higher fuel consumption due to the lower energy content of the E85 vs the old fuel, plus that added cooling effect of the E85, there is a huge fuel economy race within the race, so no more trailing throttle combustion cooling flames.
 

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Hi, my 5 cent's to Gabor.
I'm not an expert regarding GTA engines but I know for shure that for about 3 weeks ago we measure a GTV6 racecar fited with a racemodified 3,2L GTA engine and the result is: 305hk and 330Nm at wheel, max rpm 8300.

The measuring equipment was an new dynopac.

Br: Hans R
 

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Hi, my 5 cent's to Gabor. I'm not an expert regarding GTA engines but I know for shure that for about 3 weeks ago we measure a GTV6 racecar fited with a racemodified 3,2L GTA engine and the result is: 305hk and 330Nm at wheel, max rpm 8300. The measuring equipment was an new dynopac. Br: Hans R
With PEAK horsepower at 8300 rpm, we're likely dealing with an 8500 to 9000rpm motor - and in that case - a works engine! That 3.2 crank is a 78mm stroker (against the 72.6 of the 3.0 and the 68.3 of the 2.5 motors), so piston-speeds are through the roof! Yes-yes - still nothing compared to the high-revving Honda S2000 with an 84mm stroke (or the 90.7mm stroke of the later 2.2 for that matter!) The 32-year old Alfa V6 block-design has different limits!

For the Alfas, 78mm is high and the piston-speeds of that 93mm slug goes through the roof! I don't doubt that a 3.2 liter works motor - revving 8300 to 8800 rpm can produce 305 at the wheels - just not on a privateer budget. We were making 255 at the wheels on stock Alfa (modified) rods AND on stock Alfa (modified) pistons!!! As for the flames – never heard of tuning the car to shoot flames and ending up with a) a piston-cooling effect, b) any kind of fuel efficiency, or c) optimal, peak power performance at all loads…

Perhaps I should read more on the internet!?
 

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Cooling flames? Are you guys serious about that? I can't say from this video if either of these cars have the claimed power, but one thing is for sure, they are both dang FAST! Great videos.

Greg,
Silicone Hose Kits
OKINJECTORS.COM
Closed throttle, high enough revs and the engine management system is programmed to pump fuel into the engine. With either massively retarded ignition timing or (probably not) complete ignition cut, that way the fuel passes through the combustion chamber to help absorb some heat but ignites in the exhaust at some point. The end results are the flames you see licking the car on trailing throttle as they brake into corners. It wasn't ideal for fuel economy, but it helped the V8 Supercar fraternity to keep their engines together.
 

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Hi J,J, no one say that this is an low budget engine, it's very difficult to make race engine's on low budget.
Engine spec: CP hi comp piston's (12:1), Pauter connecting rod's, fully balanced engine,
race camshaft, Autronic SM4 and Jenvay trottle body's +++

Rev limiter at 8300rpm, peak on ca 7800rpm.

I try to get the diagraph next time I'm out there and post it here.

PS: what type of trottle body (3 in one) do you use on your engines ???

Br: Hans R
 

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All I can say is, that was an awesome duel!

90 horsepower is a lot of deficit to make up in corners. There is no way the lesser-powered car could have not been left in the dust with a 90hp handicap around the Parabolika.

Now, not knowing the weight of the GTV6 vs the 75, and the tires etc, this is all internet quarterbacking. There is so much that happens in a race car that it's hard to just pin it down on one factor alone.

Still, as Greg said above, those guys were haulin' a s s and that was awesome to watch.
 

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Discussion Starter #16 (Edited)
Good to hear that there are guys here who appreciate a good race with the Alfa V6! The intention was to share these videos showing that 90hp difference is not all the world! Its just fun racing!

Hans R. Its good to hear that you have achieved such good results! Actually 305 RwHp. is a bit more than I expected, but of course pistons, rods and Jenveys cost a bit! :)

I have som over a classic solution for the TB and airbox arrangement done by a swiss guy via Glenwood, which I like very much. Probably the way I will go, with a 3,2L engine. Hopefully that will give the 300+Hp target. That one is probably a 3,8L(?)
So here a photo of that arrangement and one more link to look at :)


G.K.
 

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Closed throttle, high enough revs and the engine management system is programmed to pump fuel into the engine. With either massively retarded ignition timing or (probably not) complete ignition cut, that way the fuel passes through the combustion chamber to help absorb some heat but ignites in the exhaust at some point. The end results are the flames you see licking the car on trailing throttle as they brake into corners. It wasn't ideal for fuel economy, but it helped the V8 Supercar fraternity to keep their engines together.
Flames shooting out the exhaust isn't really unusual on a hot turbo racecar. Heck, sometimes it's hard to prevent it. That said, I have never before heard of anyone retarding the timing when the throttle CLOSES and spraying in extra fuel as some sort of cooling measure. I guess I learned something new.

Greg
 

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Discussion Starter #19
Greg G.: Why don´t you make such a TB and Airbox arrangement as a kit. And I would buy it!! :)

Look at the final result in the video: A nice piece of work!
 

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Hi Gabor,

I don't deal with ITBs because they are a pain with forced induction. ITBs means twelve shaft seals to try and keep airtight under boost. Also, with stock or "S" cams they won't do much good anyway.

ITBs are great on hot cammed normally aspirated engines. There is a good reason BMW used them on the E28/E34 M5 and other "M" cars.

Greg
 
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