[dtl]

yes I know I'm on an Alfa site .....
Been Mulling over a gtv or gtv6 the past few months ..
even got the tour of HMA headquarters and a test ride in a 6 courtesy of Glen ... thanks Glen! I got a few GTV's I'm going to try and check out a 71 and a 72, hopefully soon ... a 73 2002 came up that is just down the road. this is car I had a thing for back in the day. Anyone have enough seat time in both of these cars to give an honest appraisal of the two. Likes, dislikes, strengths, weaknesses etc. All three cars appear to be solid more interested in driving experience. even between the 71 and 72 gtv's.

Thanks

 

[dtl]

hmmmm
search is your friend ...

http://www.alfabb.com/bb/forums/sed...an-driving-impressions-vs-gtv-bmw-2002-a.html

anyone want to add anything be my guest ....

 

[PSk]

My father ran a 2002 tii in classic racing for a few years and strong solid car. Aerodynamics of a brick but a quick and very reliable car.

I never had an emotional connection to this car, not sure if Dad did, but of course it was not my car. In the end I remember steering that worked, gear lever that worked but nothing that tried to make a connection with the driver. I even did quite a few racing laps in her.

I would be very disappointed in my GTV was this unconnected to me, the driver, when finished. It definitely wasn't when I pulled it apart.

Now a 323i that Dad had as a company car for a while was awesome!! ... sideways everywhere, and what an engine.
Pete

 

[JBsZ06]

(Pre alfetta body style and mechanics) Alfa gtv would be my preference. It was more involving to drive and from a styling standpoint a thing of beauty.

In my opinion the 2002 was not in the same league. Your personal preference of course would be the determining factor.

My dad had a 62 1300 vert, a 67 duet to and a 71 1750 spider so I'm biased. To drive an alfa is to understand the reason why you would want one over its German rival. To look at one as well.

Again..jmo

 

[105Bandit]

My parents had both when I was growing up in the 70's and 80's and I loved them all. 1973 GTV 2000, 1976 Alfetta GT, 1974 2002tii (parents owned it over 30 years and did in excess of 800k klms in it before selling it)

I have both a 105 Spider (23 years) and a 116GTV track car (13 yrs) and had the opportunity to buy the family tii but let it go and I do kick myself sometimes as the larger boot/trunk and rear seats is very handy.

They are all different, but the 105 GTV is more stimulating to drive for sure, however the 2002tii is quicker in a straight line and far more solid a car. You didn't mention if the 2002 was a carb version or the better tii model. Many people with the standard 2002 rip off the standard carbs and add 2 x webers which is what the Alfas have standard anyway. tii is heaps better than standard carb version.
Our BMW had barely any rust compared to the Alfas which is costly to fix. The kugelfischer can be a little costly to rebuild when required.
The 2002 is a very iconic car in the US I believe and was the car that got BMW back on track financially.
Your best option is to drive them both and go from there, either way they are both great and you will not regret the decision whichever you buy.

 

[rloewy]

I had a 1972 BMW 2002. A very nice car, but not a great driver car in it's original spec. I replaced it with a 1991 E30 BMW which I really loved. That car was totaled when a van ran into the back of it.

I currently own a couple of 105 coupes. I think that the Alfas are more exciting to drive, better looking and make better noise. The BMW was exceptionally built - and fractionally more comfortable.

2002s can be made much more exciting to drive - but it requires suspension work at a minimum.

Both are iconic cars from that era - but if I were to look @ GTV or Giulia/Berlina vs. 2002 - I would not take the BMW over any of them (unless money is an issue, similar condition cars - you can find 2002s for cheaper).

To be fair, if I were looking for a BMW to own, it would not be a 2002 - it would be another E30.

 

[Trich]

I have a '73 BMW 2002 in addition to a '65 Giulia Sprint GT. Admittedly, I've hardly driven the Alfa as I bought it in need of a full resto and I'm still knee-deep into it. However, I've owned the 2002 for about 10 years and it's a great little car. Similar to the GTV's, there are some great elements:
1. Parts availability: Mobile Tradition (a group within BMW) still produces the vast majority of parts for 2002's. As with Alfa's, some are ludicrously expensive (think belt line aluminum trim) while other things are remarkably cheap. Regardless, the fact that you can still by factory-supplied new parts for a 40+ year old car is pretty awesome.
2. Tons of fun to drive: When I bought my '02 it was a little hotted up, but not too much. It was great to drive around town and the odd track day in that configuration. Over the past 10 years I've fixed up just about everything on the car and hotted it up quite a bit more and have compromised some on comfort, but it just has so much pep now, it's a blast. I've also driven stock '02's and it's a very different but still enjoyably experience. Considerably lighter steering than mine (skinnier tires), much smoother over bumps (higher ride and softer springs), but a more leisurely experience.
3. One of the things that really sucked me into the 2002 world is there is such a great on-line support network and community at bmw2002faq.com. A great group of folks, very diverse, but infinitely willing and eager to help.
4. Based on my experiences and observations, in general, I'd say that 2002 crowd is possibly a little younger than the Alfa crowd. Along with this, and I'd guess related, is what I perceive as greater acceptance of modifying cars in the 2002 world. While it is certainly done to Alfa's, I sense there are more people who are purists with GTV's than with 2002's in terms of keeping them perfectly stock. This isn't a good or bad thing, but depending on what your intentions are, you may find one environment more aligned with your motivations.
Regardless of which you choose, have a great time. Here are a couple of unsolicited and gratuitous photos of my '02.:smile2:

 

[Sketchl]

Great look'n 2002 Trich, classic but hot!

Here's another driver!

A Day Spent Carving Corners In A Tweaked BMW 2002

When searching for words that characterize the experience one gets from a modern sports car, “frustrating” is not one you would expect to come to mind. Yet with so much power and so little opportunity to use it, I have been hard-pressed to find a more suitable term. This, of course, is nothing...

petrolicious.com

 

[Barrons]

Owned a 1972 Tii back when it was new and another in the 90s. Very fun to drive and quite reliable drive anywhere kind of car. Did several runs from WI to CO and CA. Only weak link was the water pump. More solid build quality throughout BUT for styling the GTV wins easily. I think early 70's BMWs are cheap right now too if you can find a good one.

 

[dtl]

Thanks for the replies

The bimmer is a stocker not a tii. interestingly it has an almost new motor in it. nos 2002 motor. The matching numbers motor comes with it on a pallet. You could hot up the nos motor and still have the matching numbers unit if the market turned toward putting a higher value on that. If you owned it long enough.

The alfas definitely got it beat on style. However it seems cars of equal vintage and condition the bmw is half the price of the alfas. Thats not a huge deal but that leaves plenty of cash for tweaks if you go the bmw route.

One concern I have with all three is getting down the highway, and no AC. The idea is for whatever I get to be an almost daily driver. Thats means time on the highway. I think the 2002 is a four speed and I wonder how that will work at 70 to 75 mph for an hour or two. AC ... well I had an electra glide and that was a bit of a bear around town when the temps got over 90. I'd rather not have to keep it parked when things heat up. Sometimes I need to show up places and not look like I just got out of a sauna! anyone running a non ac car when its hot and humid and you have to show up presentable or would rather not sweat buckets just going down the road!!

 

[Alfajay]

Been Mulling over a gtv or gtv6 the past few months ..

Other than sharing a few letters in their names, the GTV and GTV6 are completely different cars. The 4 cyl. GTV is comparable in many ways to the 2002; while the GTV-6 is, well, a six. If you need A/C, it was available on GTV-6's.

more interested in driving experience. even between the 71 and 72 gtv's.

A 1971 and 1972 Alfa GTV are virtually indistinguishable. Yea, the '72 has 183cc's more displacement (about 10%) over the '71. Many people prefer the 1779cc engine of the '71, though honestly they don't feel all that different. The dash and console design of the '71 are also preferred by some Alfisti.

 

[GTVMk1]

I've owned both and they are both really good driver's cars.

The Alfa has the edge with regard to driver feedback, handling, brakes, throttle response (Webers), induction and exhaust noise. The BMW does have that Germanic solidness and feels like a more modern drive. As far as rust goes, I don't think the BM is any better - mine was a rust bucket and ones I've looked at in so-called 'restored' condition have also had rust issues.

Also, I've watched the prices over the last 5-10 years and there is definitely an increasing gap between the values, with a good 1750 GTV now around 30-50% more than a comparable 2002Tii. If I had the money I would probably invest in a Tii now before the prices go up, because it would make a great summer car if fitted with A/C, then I could just drive the Alfa in winter.

Cheers,
Wazza

 

[gprocket]

I'm curious, does anyone know what the parts availability is with the 2002? I can't imagine it being as good as what we have going with Alfas...

 

[Alfajay]

...does anyone know what the parts availability is with the 2002? I can't imagine it being as good as what we have going with Alfas...

No, it's not "as good" - it's better.

#1 the factory still provides spares for early BMW's through their Mobile Tradition program. See pages like: http://www.bmwmobiletradition-online.com/bmw/showparts.do?model=2552&mospid=47140&btnr=41_1151&hg=41&fg=10 Even if you don't buy your parts through Mobile Tradition, it's great to have the parts book on-line and know what is still available and what is NLA.

#2 there are lots of on-line sellers of OE and aftermarket parts. As with Alfas, many 2002 parts are common Bosch, Lemforder and ATE stuff.

#3 here in Orange County there is even a parts store that that caters to BMW, Porsche, and Mercedes enthusiasts. You can walk in and talk with the knowledgeable people behind the counter. Mesa Performance, 2490 Newport Blvd, Costa Mesa, CA 92627 (949) 642-8824. I guess AlfaParts in Berkeley might be a comparable source for Alfa parts, though I can't think of a second example.

 

[Lemon]

I currently own both to split them on style i can't help to love them both but in terms of performance 2.0l Alfa in a straight line BMW 2.0l in the bends. Reliability Alfa has recovery truck on speed dial,the BMW is solid and economical for everyday use. Alfa more comfortable for short people but BMW is way more modern in terms of ergonomics.

For parts BMW online references way more detailed although availability is same as Alfa. I find body panels of better quality from BMW, whereas Alfa needs much fettling to fit right. Mechanical and trim parts just as easily available with far wider tuning options with BMW, Alfa seems to be stuck with Autodelta clones.

 

[Digolfa]

Both great cars, owned 2 GTV and countless 2002 incl tii
prices on both getting up there, Alfa higher than Reg 2002 but tii fetching $65 out here.
Driving seating position way different. U gotta go drive both. I’d say get the right car, needing some work for the right price and money in a good investment. Rec the tii for sure.. more power...cool clock..boxed arms in rear...

 

[Alfajay]

Driving seating position way different. U gotta go drive both. I’d say

In terms of seating position, a better comparison would be between the BMW Neu Classe cars which include the 2002 and the Alfa sedans: Giulia Super and Berlina. The Alfa GT's - Sprint GT and GTV - have a much more reclined seating configuration than the more upright Supers and 2002's.

 

[Digolfa]

I'm curious, does anyone know what the parts availability is with the 2002? I can't imagine it being as good as what we have going with Alfas...

Lots of salvage stuff around

 

[Digolfa]

I'm curious, does anyone know what the parts availability is with the 2002? I can't imagine it being as good as what we have going with Alfas...

Way more parts for BMW as way more cars sold here in USA. Salvage yards great way to find what u need.

 

[Andrew]

I have a 1600 GTV, had a 2000 GTV for 20 years, had a 2002, now have a 2002tii.
2002 engine is smoother, more turbine-like. BMW 2000 compared to a 1600 has more torque, is about comparable with an Alfa 2000. I'm spoiled now because the tii is so much better than the carb 2002.
You sit down in the 2002 more. If you're tall, that's fine. If you're short (me) it's harder to see out. Not as much elbow room in a 2002 if you drive elbows out.
Rear end stays much better planted in a 2002. You can make much better time over bad roads. Alfa will skitter more.
Alfa has lighter, better steering, more feedback. BMW is very good, but Alfa is better. 2002 tii brakes in front are big, regular 2002 brakes are fine, both have drums in back, which may fade during long hard use.
All in all performance is not that different. Depends on what you like. I feel more confident in a 105 car, but that's 45 years of driving them. With equal time in each you can go about as fast. If I had to live with a tii and no Alfas it would not be a hardship, but I'll always choose a 105 car over anything else.
Oh, 2002 stock needs fifth gear in the worst way. So if it's not already converted it's a sewing machine on the freeway, which can wear you out.
Andrew