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A friend of mine who owns a BMW 2002 just sent me an article regarding a comparison between the GTV and the 2002.

The article writes that the GTV is way ahead of the 2002 in straight road but when it comes to cornering the 2002 is much better and ahead of the GTV beause it "obeys" it's driver in contrast with the GTV which is difficult and needs "special care".

All comments welcome...!
 

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I have owned four 2002's and rallyed them on logging roads in BC. I would say GTV is better on tarmac and 2002 better on bumpy surfaces. The Alfas always have some 'bump' steer and axle hop on rough surfaces...rhe 2002 all independant is better in these conditions.
 

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In vintage racing here in the midwest I find the 2002 to be nothing more than a pylon for me to drive my 69 1750 around. I have raced a few with more power than me but none that could outhandle or out brake me.
 

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There really is no comparisson , price wise (then) the alfa was very expensive the 2002 was fairly cheap , it's like discussing ferraris and corvettes -one of them IS actually a car :)
Everyone seems to have an opinion of what was best then cause their daddy used to drive a crap like that , remember my stroll to the NATO avenue?-well there is a Bertone cut in half and also a 2002, guess which one had the ****iest structure....That car would fold with anything more than 150hp.
I got a guy at work feeding me the same **** each day about those darn Ford Capris , the GT one he has...i'll put it to the test- soon.
 

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Oh I dunno - the 2002's were kind of cool, and they did introduce the US motoring public to the wonders of small displacement European performance coupes. Of course, Alfas are better in every way, but you have to admit, BMW did a MUCH better job of marketing and supporting their products in the 1970's, and as such, put more vehicles on the US roads, and created more mindshare.

I had a '69 BMW 1600 coupe in '71 - '74 and while its drivetrain was fairly reliable, the cooling system was really junk. Of course, the electrical and braking systems were the same Bosch & ATE designs used on the GTV, so not much distinction there. My 1600 did have drum rear brakes, which seemed sort of low tech on an IRS car. Did BMW upgrade to 4 wheel disks on the 2002's ?

One big distinction: a 2002 certainly looks dorky when parked next to a sleek Bertone-designed Alfa.
 

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Not the first or last word on the subject. The 2002 had rear drum brakes, there was a production change sometime, maybe late 1969, earlier 1600's had single pot front calipers and smaller rear drums, later models had larger rear drums and dual pot claipers as did the 2002. My 1968 1600, which I have completely mechanically rebuilt, runs and drives like a top, no cooling system issues ever and I drive it hard, now back in the day, emmision controls and timing may have made a difference and I started with a " hot tanked" block and "rodded" radiator. When the BMW 1600 was introduced one major auto magazine decribed it as an ALFA GIULIA built by Germans. To me the Alfa 105 series and BMW 1600/2002 are very similiar just different approachs. The BMW chassis is strong enough, like the ALFA, pick-up one side at the jack point and both tires come off the ground. The Alfa is sexier, better brakes and five speed (you have to convert the BMW) The BMW has better vision, better build/design quality, better interior space(aka shoulder width) everything else is pretty much a wash. Getting more power out of the BMW is simpler then the ALFA, the BMW M10 blocks have built out for track work over 1000hp
 

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A stock 2002 is a non issue for an Alfa 1600 or larger. In my younger days I used to beat up on them w/ a Giulia Super on the Autobahn and backroads all the time ;) - a 110hp early Golf GTI was a much greater challenge. Now, if a Getrag 5-speed is fitted (rare and a super expensive option at the time; dogleg 5th), the balance starts to shift. Now people retrofit later 5-speeds into old 02's. Re: brakes; some 2002's - I believe tii's and turbos had the 4-pots w/ vented rotors. I have been out on the track in a 2002 so equipped - these brakes are way superior to any stock Alfa brakes. Any seriously prepped 2002 should give an Alfa a good run for the money - the block is bullet proof - the same design was used on the 1000hp (in qualifying trim) BMW Formula 1 1.4 liter turbo engine, as well as the later E30 M3 (best BMW ever). Having said that, I much prefer any Alfa - it puts a smile on my face. The Beemer doesn't.
 

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After all my moaning about depressed Alfa prices (at least until recently anyway) I was rather surprised to see that 2002's seem to go for substantially less than a GTV.

Although it might be more appropriate to compare it to a Berlina. Then again, Berlina's are starting to command some interesting numbers as well.

Performance-wise I would assume anything comparison with a GTV would likewise apply to a Berlina...
 

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Gprocket had written: "I was rather surprised to see that 2002's seem to go for substantially less than a GTV."

Well, I suppose that's what classical economics would predict - If BMW sold a lot of 2002's, while Alfa sold only a few GTV's, then the more scarce item will command a higher price. I would guess that 2002's and GTV's have had similar survival rates over the past 35 years - both were prone to rust, and tended to fall into the hands of impecunious owners in the 70's and 80's - so ratio of the two cars available today probably matches the production ratio.

I wish I had those production figures. I have the Benson "Alfa Buyers Guide" which lists the serial numbers for the Sprint GT and GTV models - however, I doubt that every possible s/n represents a car - that seems to give too high a figure. (Can anyone clarify this? That is, if Benson says that model 105.36 serial numbers went from 240001 to 252501, does that mean that 12,500 vehicles were produced?). I own a copy of the corresponding "BMW Buyers Guide", but it says nothing about serial #'s or production figures.

It would also be interesting to compare the cost of the GTV and 2002 when new - neither buyers guide addresses that. Again, anyone know?
 

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Doing a little research yielded this from BMW 2002 :

"2002 series was probably the most important model in BMW's history. In the early 60s, although small cars like Isetta, 600 and 700 kept the Munich company alive, its image was mushy and financial outlook was still poor. It was the 2002 series that changed its fate. This little 2-door sedan redefined the image of BMW. It combined powerful engine and agile handling with solid German build quality and practical 4-people accommodation into a reasonably priced package. No one else had ever done that before - yes, Alfa Romeo Giulia GTV might be even more exciting to drive, but it was over expensive and lacked the BMW's reliability and space. From 1966 to 1977, BMW produced 850,000 units of the 2002 series. That's more than 4 times the number of Isetta series and each car enjoyed a much higher profit margin. The car not only brought BMW a big fortune but also established the winning formula for the subsequent 3-Series to follow. Obviously, it was the turning point in BMW's history.

The 2002 series started life in 1966 in the form of 1600-2 (the -2 in its name meant 2 doors). It was derived from the contemporary 1600 sedan, with rear doors deleted and wheelbase shortened by 50 mm to make it lighter and more agile to handle. Its 1.6-litre sohc engine produced 85 horsepower and enabled the 940 kg little car to outperform many contemporary sports cars, say, MGB. Its all independent suspensions (with MacPherson struts up front and semi-trailing arm at the rear) and front disc brakes were also unfound in any cars at the same price level, providing superb handling. On the other hand, 1600-2 provided all the practicalities of a sedan - a properly-sized rear seats, superb visibility (thanks to large windows and slim pillars) and big boot. Lastly but not least, it looked cult.

1600-2 received many appreciations from the press and the market. Sales exceeded BMW's expectation and production volume ramped up quickly to meet demand. But this was only the beginning. Next year, BMW introduced 1600ti, a hotter version of 1600-2. It used higher compression ratio and twin-choke Solex carburetors to raised the output to 105 hp. Now BMW was in place to challenge the sports sedan leader, Alfa Romeo Giulia GTV..

Because the 1600ti engine could not pass Federal emission regulations, it was not offered in the USA. With the huge potential of that market in mind, BMW developed a 2.0-litre engine for the car. Big engine in a small car, it became the mighty 2002. Various state of tune were available: the regular 2002 had a single carburetor to produce 100 hp, the 2002ti got 120 hp through twin-carburetors and lastly, a mechanical fuel injection and higher compression ratio helped 2002tii to squeeze out 130 hp. In the latter form, it could top 118 mph and did 0-60 mph in 8.2 seconds. It pushed Alfa Romeo Giulia GTV to the boxing corner…

Commercial-wise, the BMW was a clear winner. In 11 years, BMW produced 430,000 units of 2002, plus 270,000 units of 1600-2, 80,000 units of 1802 and 70,000 units of 1502 (which was the product of oil crisis). In contrast, Alfa Romeo produced 223,000 units of Giulia GTV and derivatives in 13 years."

The only reference to pricing I found was that the 1600 listed out in 1966 for DM 8500 (about $4,000 ?). I didn't think a GTV was much higher than that in 1966 but the general consensus seems to be that the GTV's were much more expensive. Clearly the GTV was the car to catch. It was Max Hoffman, famous US imported that convinced BMW to put a 2L in the 1600 to compete with the GTV. The rest as they say, is history...
 

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A stock 2002 is a non issue for an Alfa 1600 or larger. In my younger days I used to beat up on them w/ a Giulia Super on the Autobahn and backroads all the time ;) - a 110hp early Golf GTI was a much greater challenge. Now, if a Getrag 5-speed is fitted (rare and a super expensive option at the time; dogleg 5th), the balance starts to shift. Now people retrofit later 5-speeds into old 02's. Re: brakes; some 2002's - I believe tii's and turbos had the 4-pots w/ vented rotors. I have been out on the track in a 2002 so equipped - these brakes are way superior to any stock Alfa brakes. Any seriously prepped 2002 should give an Alfa a good run for the money - the block is bullet proof - the same design was used on the 1000hp (in qualifying trim) BMW Formula 1 1.4 liter turbo engine, as well as the later E30 M3 (best BMW ever). Having said that, I much prefer any Alfa - it puts a smile on my face. The Beemer doesn't.
I fully agree.

But at the end of the day, you can get much more hp from a 2002 than from a 105 2 lt. With reasonable money.

 

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I owned both a succession of Sprint-GTV/Berlina Alfas and a BMW 2002 tii (Kugelfisher FI) and 1800 model in the early to mid 70s. I preferred the handling of the Alfas in most areas but in the case of the 2000cc tii BMW the acceleration was quite a bit better than any of the (stock 1750/2000) Alfas. That said, I kept a GTV 1750 into the mid 80's and I would have it still if it had not been totaled (while parked) by an idiot!
IMHO the Alfas were simply more fun to drive!

Cheers!
Dave G.
 

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I believe tii's and turbos had the 4-pots w/ vented rotors.
The great news here is that the ATE 4-pots on the tii are a direct fit for the GTVs. I have them installed in my GTV. They look stock since they are both cast ATEs. Not the lightest 4-pots, but they look like they belong. They have two inputs so you need to plumb a T. I used the rear T from Alfas, so it all came together with minimal non-Alfa hardware.

On a note about power; I read somewhere (maybe it was on Beninca's site) that Alfas individual sleeves gave the edge to the 2002 engine. If you put in a monosleeve (like Beninca sells) you get the strength to get more power out compared to the 2002.

Those findings may just have to do with ultimate output power, I'm not sure. I don't know much about production figures for the 2002.
 

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Back to the road

When I still lived in Germany we had a group of about 10 Alfa enthusiasts amongst our club members who would take a trip once a year to the Dolomites in South Tirol or to the Alps in Italy, Switzerland or France. For three, four, or five days we would do nothing but run our Alfas up and down mountain passes from dawn til dusk. In 04 a friend insisted on coming along in his 2002, a very nice fellow who we all just jokingly called "propeller head". Well, we didn't see much of him on that trip and, although he would have been very welcome, he never joined in on our trips again. The 2002 was a well taken care of and properly serviced car in perfect running condition but just didn't stand a chance against even the 1600's amongst us. In tight corners and switch-backs he was constantly spinning the inside wheel, we had temperatures of about 30* C and he had to have the heat on full blast to stop from over heating, he didn't come anywhere close to keeping up when accelerating out of switch-backs and foremost, he didn't look like he was having a heck of a lot of fun!
I'm not going to pick 02's apart, I learned to drive in one when I was fourteen, I've admired them ever since and if the 105 Alfa series didn't exist I'm sure I'd own at least one. The only problem is: They do exist and really are a lot more fun to drive. The only 02 that has ever challenged the 1600 and larger Alfas was the tii and rumor has it that they were built to finally do just that.:rolleyes:
regards
Bob
 

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The great news here is that the ATE 4-pots on the tii are a direct fit for the GTVs. I have them installed in my GTV. They look stock since they are both cast ATEs. Not the lightest 4-pots, but they look like they belong.
That's interesting - but which uprights will they fit;
the 1300/1600 or the 1750/2000? Can you fit vented rotors?
 

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A friend of mine who owns a BMW 2002 just sent me an article regarding a comparison between the GTV and the 2002.

The article writes that the GTV is way ahead of the 2002 in straight road but when it comes to cornering the 2002 is much better and ahead of the GTV beause it "obeys" it's driver in contrast with the GTV which is difficult and needs "special care".

All comments welcome...!
Both were owned by true car nuts back then:)
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by iachella
The great news here is that the ATE 4-pots on the tii are a direct fit for the GTVs. I have them installed in my GTV. They look stock since they are both cast ATEs. Not the lightest 4-pots, but they look like they belong.
That's interesting - but which uprights will they fit;
the 1300/1600 or the 1750/2000? Can you fit vented rotors?
I don't know the difference between the uprights of 1300/1600 and 1750/2000. I have a 74 GTV. It has stock GTV rotors. If the tii came with vented rotors, I'd guess you could fit them if they weren't too wide? I also don't know a lot about vented vs solid rotors and the range of thicknesses that a caliper will accept.

Maybe the tii turbo came with vented rotors and the ones I got are from the non-turbo tii. I'm just guessing here.
 

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Now that is interesting. Did you really notice a big defference in stopping power with the tii calipers? Not sure if there is enough space to get vented in with the 2000 GTV. Can anyone comment for sure? Would be a really neat upgrade with front vented rotors.

I don't know the difference between the uprights of 1300/1600 and 1750/2000. I have a 74 GTV. It has stock GTV rotors. If the tii came with vented rotors, I'd guess you could fit them if they weren't too wide? I also don't know a lot about vented vs solid rotors and the range of thicknesses that a caliper will accept.

Maybe the tii turbo came with vented rotors and the ones I got are from the non-turbo tii. I'm just guessing here.
 

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You can run BMW 4-pots w/ Montreal rotors or custom rotors. This makes a huge difference in braking power and is a somewhat common upgrade for Montreals which have essentially a stock 2 liter ATE caliper w/ a spacer as stock front brakes. This will work on any 1750/2000 spindle but the huge cost of the Montreal rotors does not make this a cost effective modification.
 

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Always a fan of Alfa's,GTAs.GTVs,and Guilia sedans etc.No debate from me,but I do love my 72 tii.They have a lot of personality,handle & perform well by 70's standards.
Great supportive community of owners.Kuglefisher Fuel Injection is elegant and in a 2200 lb.well made auto.
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