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No change in the text on the Coys webiste

Nik from Coys here. Due the scarcity of information and lack of photographs of any quality at all some of the photographs on line are archive Pictures. We are waiting for the owner and the car and it´s histyory file. I will keep alfabb posted as the history file is in the car on a truck. Usually we want all the documentation to catalogue the car early but this car was entered in the very last minute.

Chassis number on the Giulia Sprint Gt is AR603142

Nik
Goodmorning Nik & members,

Saturday morning 09.00 hours Amsterdam local time, still the same text on the Coys website.
The car is going to be auctioned today. The auction will start at 14.00 hours local time.

Ciao, Olaf
 

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I find it a bit strange that potentially such an important car enters the auction "at the last minute" surely that defeat the object of achieving the highest price especially if there is documentary evidence that this is one of the prototypes as some as suggesting or am I just too suspicious by nature?
 

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This car will only increase in value due to its rarity especially as its configuration is in original Autodelta trim not "add ons"as mentioned above. This 1.5 litre 16V engine had an output of 196 hp which in a 1600 shell is very powerful for the era.I'm sure people do not realise its true value yet. I"ve know of the existence of this car for more than 20 years and it has been hidden away from the public.
 

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Gtv6, could you tell me when it was built at autodelta then? And perhaps shine a light on why they would have picked an obsolete Sprint GT shell instead of a 1750 mk1 , or gta shell? As far as I believe, the 16v head is rather a late development.
Believe me I really like the car, but I find it obscure and strange.
 

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16V engines have been used by Autodelta since the 60's. ALEC MILDREN an Australian Alfa dealer had a stradale 1300GTA 16V built by Autodelta.I suspect that the 1.5 was also developed prior to the F.I.A. changing the class capacity to 1600cc's hence the capacity of this engine. Only personnel involved with the development at Autodelta during this period would know the truth. One of the reasons why they used a steel shell may be because the power ouput was much higher than GTA's of that era being able to handle the increased stresses because some earlier all alloy floored GTA's were showing stress cracks
Later GTA's had steel floor pans.Here in Australia , it is a known fact that the 1300 & 1600 Giulia 105 chassis are lighter than the later 1750 2000 ones
 

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Change in capacity classes?

Hello GTV6SA,


You talk about a change in capacity classes that made the Giulia Sprint GT 1500cc 16V Iniezione obsolete.
Can you tell us when this change in capacity classes took place?

I checked the capacity classes in the FIA Appendix J from 1961, here is the link:
http://argent.fia.com/web/fia-public.nsf/4251EDE8D24B2A8DC1257A40002C726A/$FILE/Appendix%20J%20-%201961%20ANG.pdf

I did the same for the capacity classes in the The FIA Appendix J from 1964:
http://argent.fia.com/web/fia-public.nsf/55426767AE6F511BC1257A4100482CA8/$FILE/1964_1965%20Annexe%20J%20de%20la%20FIA%20(version%20complète_français).pdf

Again the capacity classes in the The FIA Appendix J from 1965:
http://argent.fia.com/web/fia-public.nsf/C1DF875646CF7838C1257A40002EE4BB/$FILE/Appendix%20J%20-%201965%20ENG.pdf

If this information is correct, there was no change in the capacity classes during the period from 1961 onwards.

All the info that I used can be found here:
FIA HISTORIC APPENDICES J - OF THE PERIOD

Meanwhile, I checked this thread about 16V engines:
http://www.alfabb.com/bb/forums/gta-1965-1975/207009-autodelta-early-style-16-valve-engine.html

And it seems this engine was discussed before:
http://www.alfabb.com/bb/forums/gta-1965-1975/230538-what-engine.html

Alfaholics also had experience with a special 16V engine:
Car Stripped & Parts Catalogued | Classic Alfa Romeo spare parts and accessories

Ciao, Olaf
 

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Do we know anything about the suspension? Or race History if any? What about the chassis build date. My Sprint GT 606153, has a build date of July 31, 1964 so this one could be earlier. What does that RIAR document translate to and what is its importance if any?

Value is about the sum of the parts, in the absence of significant documentation of provenance. And Auto Delta Prova sheets would be good too.

IMHO


Ken
 

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Translation of the RIAR document

Dear members,

I translated the RIAR (Registro Italiano Alfa Romeo) document with internet so that we all can read it. The text says:

"With reference to your question, we are pleased to inform you that the Technical RIAR Board has reviewed the documentation sent to us and gave permission(?) for the approval of this/your? car.
Therefore, we send the nameplate marked no 258; approval for the engine only.
We remind you that the cost of any such plate is 50,000 (lire?). Please kindly sent the money by check or money order.
With the most cordial greetings,"

So in 1987, the RIAR only registered and approved the engine, not the complete car. What was the reason for that and what is the value/authority of such a registration.

Some other questions":
First the "what":
Is this an authentic Autodelta engine and can that be backed up by documentation or other means? If not, what is it? If yes, was this engine first used in a or in this car (and later used as a 1500cc Marine 16V Iniezione engine in a powerboat) or was it a later road conversion of the initial 1500cc Marine 16V Iniezione engine? Maybe the development was done side by side or otherwise? And what about other possibilities? How does chassis AR 603142 fit in?

Then the "when". When was this engine fitted to AR 603142? What was the sequence of events in terms of time?

Who did this work? And where was it done?

There is more to learn.


Ciao, Olaf
 

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This car will only increase in value due to its rarity especially as its configuration is in original Autodelta trim not "add ons"as mentioned above. This 1.5 litre 16V engine had an output of 196 hp which in a 1600 shell is very powerful for the era.I'm sure people do not realise its true value yet. I"ve know of the existence of this car for more than 20 years and it has been hidden away from the public.
I am but an amateur but your post seems to suggest that you are convinced that this is really one of the two prototypes - is this the case?

If it is indeed the real deal, I still find it strange that it appears at auction at the last minute.......
 

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Photograph of the rear suspension

Do we know anything about the suspension? Or race History if any? What about the chassis build date. My Sprint GT 606153, has a build date of July 31, 1964 so this one could be earlier. What does that RIAR document translate to and what is its importance if any?

Value is about the sum of the parts, in the absence of significant documentation of provenance. And Auto Delta Prova sheets would be good too.

IMHO


Ken
Hello Ken,

Here is a photograph of the rear suspension of AR 603142.

Ciao, Olaf
 

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What do we know sofar?

Dear members, so what do we know sofar?

Please bare with me, first of all I am stating the facts that we have verified.
Next are the things that one of our members has offered as information without saying that this info is right or wrong, just that it needs to be verified. If you have anything to add to the facts or the “offered information”, please do so.

Verified facts about the car:
A Giulia Sprint GT with chassisnumber AR 603142 from 1964 carries an Alfa Romeo engine with a “hanging oilfilter”, a 16 valve head with a waterpassage on the exhaust side, single plug ingnition, a Lucas sliding throttle fuel injection with a metal plenum. The bodyshell is a “widebody” version with roll cage without a slittone rear suspension. The car has the single brake booster (for a car with standing pedals).
The Technical Board of the Registro Italiano has reviewed the documentation of this car that was sent to them. It is not known if they inspected the car itself. They gave “approval for the engine only” with nameplate No. 258 in 1987.
This car was offered at auction on the 18th of January 2014 by Coys with an estimate of 110K – 130K Euro’s. The car was sold for 87K Euro’s.
GTV6SA took pictures of the same car when it was in a private collection.
We know that Autodelta had developed a 1500cc “Marine” engine for motorboat racing. It is mentioned in the first edition of “Alleggerita”. Please let someone check the page as I am not able to get to my first edition of “Alleggerita”.

Opinions and things that need verification:
The engine displacement hasn’t been verified. The text of Coys doesn’t mention a displacement, only the figure of 208 BHP. The text on the trunk of the car suggests an engine of 1500cc.

GTV6SA says that the car is one of the two 1500cc 16V Iniezione prototypes that were developed by Autodelta. The exact period during which this engine/car was developed has not been verified by anyone. Coys suggests that the car was developed in period with the Giulia Sprint GTA.

GTV6SA says that Quote “This car will only increase in value due to its rarity especially as its configuration is in original Autodelta trim not "add ons" as mentioned above. This 1.5 litre 16V engine had an output of 196 hp which in a 1600 shell is very powerful for the era.I'm sure people do not realise its true value yet. I"ve know of the existence of this car for more than 20 years and it has been hidden away from the public.” Unquote.

Berlinista asked GTV6SA Quote “Gtv6, could you tell me when it was built at autodelta then? And perhaps shine a light on why they would have picked an obsolete Sprint GT shell instead of a 1750 mk1 , or gta shell? As far as I believe, the 16v head is rather a late development.
Believe me I really like the car, but I find it obscure and strange.” Unquote

GTV6SA further states hat Quote ”16V engines have been used by Autodelta since the 60's. Alec Mildren an Australian Alfa dealer had a stradale 1300GTA 16V built by Autodelta. I suspect that the 1.5 was also developed prior to the F.I.A. changing the class capacity to 1600cc's hence the capacity of this engine. Only personnel involved with the development at Autodelta during this period would know the truth. One of the reasons why they used a steel shell may be because the power ouput was much higher than GTA's of that era being able to handle the increased stresses because some earlier all alloy floored GTA's were showing stress cracks
Later GTA's had steel floor pans.Here in Australia , it is a known fact that the 1300 & 1600 Giulia 105 chassis are lighter than the later 1750 2000 ones” Unquote.

As far as I (Olaf) can verify, the FIA did not change the class capacity from 1500 to 1600cc in the Appendix J for Group 2 during the period from 1961 to 1965 and later. Please let someone verify this.

This is what the text of Coys says:

Quote ”Estimate: €110,000 - €130,000
In 1962, the successor for the very popular Giulietta series was introduced. This car was the Alfa Romeo Giulia, internally called the “Series 105”. The coupé of the 105 series, used the shortened floor pan from the Giulia Berlina and was designed by Bertone.

At the time, Alfa was very active in Motor sport. Autodelta , the racing division of Alfa, developed a car for competition that closely resembled to the road going model. These cars were named GTA instead of GT, the 'A' standing for “Alleggerita”, Italian for lightweight. The GTA was produced first in 1965 as a 1600 (1570 cc) and later as a 1300 Junior version. The GTA auto mobiles were also manufactured in either street (Stradale) or pure race (Corsa) trim.
The GTA had aluminium outer body panels instead of steel, (the inner steel panels were also of thinner gauge, the inner and outer panels were bonded and pop-riveted together), magnesium alloy wheels, clear plastic side windows, an aluminium rear upper control arm, different door handles and quarter window mechanisms, and lightweight interior trim. The engine had a new double ignition cylinder head (called twin plug, later in the eighties the system was called twin spark) cylinder head with a Marelli distributor from a Ferrari Dino, 45mm carburettors instead of 40mm and magnesium camshaft cover, sump, timing cover and bell housing. The transmission gear ratios were closer than standard and the gears were machined for lightness and quicker shifting. In full race form this engine could produce up to 170 hp. The 1600 GTA did not have a brake booster and had a thicker radiator than the standard vehicle. For homologation 500 cars were made for racing and road use.

The car in our auction is a rather special one, it is basically a Giulia Sprint GT but it was heavily modified in period to race specification just as the the forthcoming GTA´s was. It was used as a development car for a very special engine, basically the forthcoming GTAm but with 16 valves and a Lucas injection system.

This engine was very powerful, producing 208 bhp as opposed to the later GTAm´engines that produced 150- 160 bhp. It proved too expensive for Autodelta who did all the development work and who opted for the GTAm s twin spark design instead. This prototype engine was, according to the vendor, later used in a World endurance speed boat record attempts by boat maker Molinari.

A lot of the things tried by Autodelta on this car were put into the GTA and this prototype´s mechanical specifications are similar to that of the quickest race prepared GTA´s, it also has a shorter ratio gearbox. This car is an important part of post-war Alfa Romeo history and is also certified by Registro Alfa Romeo.” Unquote.
 

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Hi Olaf,

I am not totally familiar with Tony Adriaensens` Alleggerita so your subject`s answers may appear in the text! However, I can only find reference to the subject "Special 4-cylinder Autodelta engines" as an appendix.

First page deals with "GTA 1600 16 valves, also called 1600 F2"

Second page "1500 Marino 91" " - see page attached - note annotation 91" -

Third page; two fotos of the "...rare 1500 Marino 91" engine"

Subsequent pages; deal with the 1300 16 valve engines for offshore power boat racing and details of 1300/1600S/1900 4V/GTA-GTAm Marino/2000 16valve, and details of GTA,GTA junior and GTAm -16 valve/ GTAm 2000 16 valve triple ignition etc etc. No further mention of 1500 engine in any form.

Trust that is helpful.

Richard
 

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Just to add a bit of clarification?? I can find no trace - well at least Google can`t! - of an Eugenio Molierari - as per Tony As`caption to above foto - but does throw up an Eugenio Molinari - as per PO/Coys write-up - very successful power boat racer in Molinari boats. Pages and pages of stuff on Boat Racing Facts Forum; too many to search for an Alfa 1500 engined boat....

Richard
 

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People shouldn't try to read too much into posts after all it is an opinion. The information that was relayed to me about the 1500cc 16V Giulia coupe was given to me from the previous Late owner( whose name I wont disclose due to Privacy considerations). I have no reason to doubt him as he was an avid collector of Alfa's as well as a learned Gentleman. I suspect that he had a very good relationship with Autodelta as he not only had that prototype but also an Ex-Autodelta GTAm, 1600GTA Corsa. a Monza as well as a 2 litre 16V Alfetta GT Gr.2 Rally car that has been documented in my Turbodelta book! I have also read on another forum that Autodelta didn't sell its experimental/special prototype to normal customers, some were placed in storage ( Museum) others were sold off or destroyed.You are lucky just to own one of these cars let alone a number of rare ex-Autodelta racing machines. Most of these cars were hidden away from public eyes but I knew of his collection when he invited me to see them back in the early 90's. Most of the mechanics from Autodelta's early inception days are no longer with us and because of that a lot of knowledge and references about their development and experimental engines/cars has been lost. On top of that only those Autodelta staff involved with the development and experimental side would know about these special projects. For example Vin Sharp who recently restored the Brian Foley GTAm tried to find out the history/origin about his car. Even the Alfa Historic archives do not have this information but I did manage to find out the name of the actual person at Autodelta who was in charge of this transaction but due to the passage of time even he couldn't remember much about its history! After the Fiat takeover much of the records were destroyed or lost. Also after the Fiat takeover many of the ex-Autodelta personnel were horrified that many original moulds and castings were destroyed or trashed. As for the origins of the 1500cc 16V engine, to throw some light on the matter, One of the very first mechanics from Autodelta's inception days told me that each year Autodelta manage to develop a different/new specification engine. This may be the reason why this is a 1500cc engine because Autodelta experimented with many different bore /stroke ratios. You only need to look at some of the 1600 GTA bore/stroke ratios and the 1300CC bore /stroke ratios. Even though as Olaf states that the capacity 1600cc didn't change, this wasn't a reason why Autodelta didn't utilise a smaller capacity but higher reving engine to produce a higher power output with a smaller capacity engine. One should also remember that when Autodelta was developing the GTAm engine for Gr.2 (105 1750) they didn't have a 2 litre block hence the Siamese linered 1779 block. You only need to look at the later Alfacorse 75 Evo motors. even though they are 1.8( nom) to stay under the 2.5 liter turbo'ed capacity, the Evo motor still had a special bore /stroke ratio ( 79.6x88.5 ) 1761 cc which was different from the Stradale 75 Turbo (80x88.5) 1779cc. Even the later DTM 2.5 V6 60deg. engines though small capacity revved to 1200rpm to achieve max 400+ HP. The later DTM engine developing near 500Hp was loosely based on a production Montreal block of 90 Deg. configuration but that is another story in itself.Much of my information has been transmitted to me by Ex Autodelta staff of that era who were involved with the development and or purchasing. Even in Tony Adriens original Allegerita book where he showed photos of the rare 3 existing GTA-SA engines , I already had seen them years before that publication. I have been privileged to also learn a lot about the internal politics within Autodelta as well as their relationships with rival competitors Lancia, Fiat, Ferarri but much of it is too controversial to disclose and even if it were most of you would be sceptical that it ever happened! I have also been lucky to learn about the factory Alfacorse DTM No.1 team and about Alfacorse2 team and some of the things that went on there. Maybe someday I will write a book about that episode.
 

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....lots of interesting history....
I find these sort of posts interesting but also sad when one realises that history is destroyed by fading memories fade, people passing on and even more sadly, by the ignorant who threw away moulds, castings and and historical records and not just at Alfa.

thank you for that.
 
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