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Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
Here is a link to GTA 752501 as it is being sold on Anamera:

1965 Alfa Romeo Autodelta GTA (1600) for sale: Anamera


The description follows:

* 752501* was road registered by Autodelta on September 28th 1965 with “UD 113558”. It was then run by Autodelta on November 6th and 7th in the “Tour de Corse” where it was driven by famous Belgian factory driver Lucien Bianchi with Vic Heylen as co-driver where they finished an excellent 6th OA. On July 1st, 1966 Autodelta cancelled the road registration with the Automobile Club d’Italia as they had sold the car to Alfa racer Vic Provenzano in the USA.
Provenzano campaigned his new, RHD Autodelta GTA – now painted white with pale blue side striping - extensively in SCCA and TransAm races during 1967 and 1968 regularly winning his class. In 1967 he finished 2nd OA in the TransAm championship.
At the end of 1968, Vic switched to another, LHD Alfa GTA and 752501 was stored in his “Shankle workshop” for many years until it was brought back to Italy by Irma Zanella who road registered the car in May of 1997. In 1998, Zanella sold the car to Mr Cees Van Haver of the Netherlands after which is was sold to the UK and owned by Anthony Bamford, Wille Green and finally, the current owner...... for more information visit Home - RMD bvba


This is all very nice, however the original car never left California and has complete ownership history.
 

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Ar752501

alfa-sport

I am certain the car in your post is not the Vic Provenzao/Shankle GTA 752501. Vic raced the GTA for John Shankle the owner. John sold the car to Dave Vegher in the mid 1970’s. Dave remembers removing the original white with blue stripe panels. Vic’s name was on the white roof. The body in its current condition consists of original panels as well as NOS panels purchased from ARI back in the day. Nancy Vegher worked for ARI at the time and helped get the parts needed to put it back together. 752501’s condition has not changed since purchasing it from Dave in 1981. I have the pink slip issued by the California Department of Motor Vehicles showing the transfer of title. Please notice the original firewall and the lack of LHD hole placement. The designation "752" is for right hand drive.

Scott
 

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Caveat emptor :hang:
Seconded........I spy a couple of tell-tale features that would make me look much further and very closely at all 752--- details and seek out a valid explaination of why......especially since apparently there is another claim to this chassis number.
Vince.
 

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Nice try but no cigar

Here is a link to GTA 752501 as it is being sold on Anamera:

1965 Alfa Romeo Autodelta GTA (1600) for sale: Anamera


The description follows:

* 752501* was road registered by Autodelta on September 28th 1965 with “UD 113558”. It was then run by Autodelta on November 6th and 7th in the “Tour de Corse” where it was driven by famous Belgian factory driver Lucien Bianchi with Vic Heylen as co-driver where they finished an excellent 6th OA. On July 1st, 1966 Autodelta cancelled the road registration with the Automobile Club d’Italia as they had sold the car to Alfa racer Vic Provenzano in the USA.
Provenzano campaigned his new, RHD Autodelta GTA – now painted white with pale blue side striping - extensively in SCCA and TransAm races during 1967 and 1968 regularly winning his class. In 1967 he finished 2nd OA in the TransAm championship.
At the end of 1968, Vic switched to another, LHD Alfa GTA and 752501 was stored in his “Shankle workshop” for many years until it was brought back to Italy by Irma Zanella who road registered the car in May of 1997. In 1998, Zanella sold the car to Mr Cees Van Haver of the Netherlands after which is was sold to the UK and owned by Anthony Bamford, Wille Green and finally, the current owner...... for more information visit Home - RMD bvba


This is all very nice, however the original car never left California and has complete ownership history.
Recipe for creating a GTA replica with history:
1. Read Alleggerita and look for GTAs not heard of for years and presumed lost and buried.
2. Copy the Alleggerita history of target GTA.
3. Make up story about buying the GTA from last owner in Alleggerita.
4. Turn GTV into GTA.
5. Get a fabricator to make a firewall copy of VIN number in Alleggerita.
6. Highlight fake firewall VIN in yellow.

The only trouble with this recipe is that the last owner and some of the history listed in Alleggerita was incorrect and the real 752501 has been seen in Scott Gray's shop by most of the GTA experts in America for the last thirty years.
 

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This is sad-

One can only hope that any potential buyer of the car in Belgium will read this. To add to what Bob has said, the history in Allegerita is not even correct/accurate. I am one of those who have seen the car. The previous two owners are still very much alive and so the car has an un-broken trail of history and ownership which is beyond dispute and quite rare. Nice try indeed! Fred.
 

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Considering that the original car's ownership is documented as going from Shankle, to Vegher and finally to Gray; it appears that the road registration by Zanella , presumably in Italy, is fraudulent and an attempt to create a false / copy of an existing car.

I am editing this post again as I am not being clear; the text listed below is from the 'for sale ad'; it is NOT my opinion, I am simply presenting what the ad is stating.
"...At the end of 1968, Vic switched to another, LHD Alfa GTA and 752501 was stored in his “Shankle workshop” for many years until it was brought back to Italy by Irma Zanella who road registered the car in May of 1997. In 1998, Zanella sold the car to Mr Cees Van Haver of the Netherlands after which is was sold to the UK and owned by Anthony Bamford, Wille Green and finally, the current owner..." Source: http://www.classicdriver.com/uk/find/4100_print.asp?sorderby=dtSubmitDate&fc=13&lcarid=1869591&action=simple_search&lmanufacturer=*&next=4100_results.asp&bsubmit=true&lmostrecent=200&print=true
 

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Not true-

With all due respect, you, alfa-sportivo, have no idea of what you are talking about. I suggest you carefully re-read Scott's post.
 

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Here is the homologation document listed as part of the "for sale ad" for the questionable car dating back to 1997. It is listing the chassis number as 613001 and the motore (engine) number as 752501; those with a historical knowledge of GTA chassis and engine numbers will know that this is not correct. And contradicts the claim that this is chassis 752501.
 

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provenance is not trumped by FIA late homologation

Just because it may not agree with your numbers doesn't mean it isnt legit. Provenance all the way back prior to your 1997 trumps FIA. How about a statement and correspondence from Marco Fazio at historica alfa romeo saying your (those)2 numbers go together for starters. I'm sticking with Fred.
Ross
 

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Here is a link to GTA 752501 as it is being sold on Anamera:

1965 Alfa Romeo Autodelta GTA (1600) for sale: Anamera


The description follows:

* 752501* was road registered by Autodelta on September 28th 1965 with “UD 113558”. It was then run by Autodelta on November 6th and 7th in the “Tour de Corse” where it was driven by famous Belgian factory driver Lucien Bianchi with Vic Heylen as co-driver where they finished an excellent 6th OA. On July 1st, 1966 Autodelta cancelled the road registration with the Automobile Club d’Italia as they had sold the car to Alfa racer Vic Provenzano in the USA.
Provenzano campaigned his new, RHD Autodelta GTA – now painted white with pale blue side striping - extensively in SCCA and TransAm races during 1967 and 1968 regularly winning his class. In 1967 he finished 2nd OA in the TransAm championship.
At the end of 1968, Vic switched to another, LHD Alfa GTA and 752501 was stored in his “Shankle workshop” for many years until it was brought back to Italy by Irma Zanella who road registered the car in May of 1997. In 1998, Zanella sold the car to Mr Cees Van Haver of the Netherlands after which is was sold to the UK and owned by Anthony Bamford, Wille Green and finally, the current owner...... for more information visit Home - RMD bvba


This is all very nice, however the original car never left California and has complete ownership history.
Seconded........I spy a couple of tell-tale features that would make me look much further and very closely at all 752--- details and seek out a valid explaination of why......especially since apparently there is another claim to this chassis number.
Vince.
Spanish webers???
 

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501

The car in Belgium is obviously a knock-off. All the owners of 501 are alive, Shankle, Vegher and Scott Gray. All of them can be reached. The chain of ownership is clearly unbroken. I saw the car in Scott's garage 20 yrs ago.

If the current owner of the Euro car came by a dishonest car inadvertently, that's unfortunate. Hopefully, the person who created the car gets stuck with it. Too often the car can get passed thru multiple hands before getting outed.

I've known Scott for close to 20 years. He's worked on my cars for that period of time. You would have a hard time finding someone with more integrity. For those that know him, his word is gold.
 

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RMD and the current owner are probably shocked

The car in Belgium is obviously a knock-off. All the owners of 501 are alive, Shankle, Vegher and Scott Gray. All of them can be reached. The chain of ownership is clearly unbroken. I saw the car in Scott's garage 20 yrs ago.

If the current owner of the Euro car came by a dishonest car inadvertently, that's unfortunate. Hopefully, the person who created the car gets stuck with it. Too often the car can get passed thru multiple hands before getting outed....
I agree the current owner and the dealer are probably shocked with these revelations and per one of my contacts RMD is a well known and respected dealer in Europe. Scott is in contact with the owner of RMD and I am sure once he sees the preponderance of evidence that Scott has the real 752501 he will not want to handle the sale of the replica.

At the current sales values of GTAs more of these replicas will see the light of day as the economics of creating a fake GTA make it a profitable venture.
I urge all GTA owners to get their provenance sorted out while the prior owners are around and to publish their claims on sites like this BB. And I urge all buyers to do their homework.
 

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I urge all GTA owners to get their provenance sorted out while the prior owners are around and to publish their claims on sites like this BB.
It pees me off no end that owners of original and real cars have to go to this length to prove a car that they may have owned for 30 or so years. Utter bastards these replica makers.

Alfaholics and the like, please stop making it so it is too easy for these scoundrels. I know that it is not your fault, and you are probably not involved with this car but I'm sorry reskinning a GTV in alloy is really only done for one reason IMO ... you can make a **** fast GTV without resorting to this.
Pete
 
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