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Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
GT Veloce 1600: Restoration/buying tips

Numerous attempts at restoring GT Veloces 1600 have occurred over the years and it's come to my attention that whilst as a private alfisti restoring my GT Veloce 1600 that there has been some confusion and miss information in the past of what is and whats not original factory specifications for the GT Veloces 1600. This thread's aim is to share the information I have found in an open forum so you can make your own mind up as to how you restore and present your GT Veloce 1600 be it for concorso or just to go for drives to the country side.

[Sharing information about 105's forms the core of my over 700 post's here in Alfabb, I mainly use primary sources like documents produced by the factory(Italian versions only) and FIA homologation documents and FCA Heritage build Certificates in Italian (Certificate of origin) of cars I have in my database. I always provide links or copies to all public documents I've used so when you are reviewing my reasoning points/conclusions that you can easily check all the documents.]

The production of the GT Veloce 1600 was completely different in many ways to it's predecessor the GT Sprint, as there are three different versions of the GT Veloce 1600 when the GT Sprint had only one version.

The three versions of the GT Veloce 1600 are
Version 1[65 to early 67]: Had deep rear arches and Dunlop brakes front and rear.
Version 2[Early 67 to mid-late 67] : (I refer Version 2 cars as meaning the Group 2 as listed in FIA 5126) Had deep rear arches and ATE adapters on the front Dunlop uprights to take ATE calipers. The rear axle had ATE calipers.
Version 3[late 67 onwards]: Had high arches and solid ATE uprights (with no adapters:to be confirmed). The rear axle had ATE calipers.Sources: FIA document 5126 and Alfa Romeo parts manual plus actual cars.

For each version of the GT Veloce 1600 could be ordered in the standard or the luxury Bertone De Luxe body option. The Bertone De Luxe included extras. One of the extra options was a leather interior. The only leather colours available for the GT Veloce 1600 were dark brown leather (pelle testa di moro) or red leather (pelle rossa). The seat panels had perforations in the leather. Source Alfa Romeo factory parts manuals and sighting actual cars and details presented here https://www.alfabb.com/bb/forums/gt-1963-1977/gt-1963-1977/gt-1963-1977/gt-1963-1977/gt-1963-1977/gt-1963-1977/gt-1963-1977/gt-1963-1977/gt-1963-1977/gt-1963-1977/gt-1963-1977/gt-1963-1977/gt-1963-1977/gt-1963-1977/gt-1963-1977/gt-1963-1977/gt-1963-1977/gt-1963-1977/gt-1963-1977/gt-1963-1977/gt-1963-1977/car...xe-option.html

The GT Veloce 1600 only came in two colours for vinyl seats, they were dark grey (Nero fumo) or a tan/beer colour.
The GT Veloce 1600 only came in two colours for combined cloth and vinyl seats, they were dark grey (Nero fumo) or a tan/beer colour.
The GT Veloce 1600 only came in two colours for the carpet, they were dark grey (Nero fumo) or red.
The GT Veloce 1600 never came in a black interior. So no black vinyl seats and no black vinyl door cards and no black leather seats and no black leather door cards and no black carpet and no black rear windscreen parcel shelve
I think you need to consult the Italian spare parts catalogue (page 425 and 426) to confirm colors of rear parcel shelf as I think there are errors in the English translated version on theses pages.
The GT Veloce 1600 came with AR 00536 engines and Weber 40 DCOE 27 carbies.
 

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Discussion Starter #2 (Edited)
The FIA homologation paper 5126 for the GT Veloce 1600 will give you some details as to the versions (even though they don't use the word version), they do use Group 1 and Group 2. There were only 1000 Group 2 cars, these cars are what I call version 2.

You can tell if you have one of these cars if it has deep rear arches and ATE adapters on the front Dunlop uprights to take ATE calipers. See the details on pages 11 and 12 of FIA 5126, and the spare parts manual. For the Group 2(version 2) cars came with a better range of parts like LSDs, different gearbox ratios, 6x15 wheels and pistons etc (some parts possibly from the GTA) etc as listed in the document. GT Veloce 1600 cars that raced in Australia in events like Bathurst in 1967
(would have been Group 2 cars I think) came third and fourth against the the first and second place cars which were 289 V8 Falcon GT XR.

So version2 (Group 2) cars are rare (only 1000 cars) compared to version 1(Group 1 cars).
Even though I have placed nominal dates for version 1 and version 2(Group 2) The Group 2 cars could have been available from 1966 but most likely production was in the first half of 1967 as the last of the 1600 GTA's were made in 1967(only 60 cars) The last 60 GTA's may have already been allocated and those who missed out on a 1600 GTA purchased one of the GT Veloce 1600 Group 2 cars.

The version 3 cars with the high rear arches also had ATE brakes but on solid ATE uprights (with no adapters) but these cars were still Group 1 cars but differed from the earlier Group 1 cars so I have called them version 3 cars.

Steve
 

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Any ideas as to how many Gt Veloces were made with that deluxe option? I believe the deluxe option was quite expensive. I have one but I've never seen another in person and only a few others in photos. I can't imagine it was more than 5% of the ~5500 that were made in 67. I am still trying to restore my seats with that leather perforation that came with the deluxe.

1967GTV
 

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This is some great detailed info. It might be true for Australia but there are plenty of US-spec cars that had ATEs front and rear without adapters, and original deep (low) rear arches. My car, late 1966, does.
Andrew
 

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This is some great detailed info. It might be true for Australia but there are plenty of US-spec cars that had ATEs front and rear without adapters, and original deep (low) rear arches. My car, late 1966, does.
Andrew
In the 40+ years I have been an Alfa owner there have been many times when I thought I'd figured out what model was what, what spec followed what spec, yadda yadda yadda. Inevitably the latest 'understanding' gets thrown out the door and in the end I've come to the conclusion that what happened in Arese stayed in Arese!

When I got to the US some 5 years ago it was like starting all over on this one, US market cars definitely have their own history and terminology. Put a US spec 115 GTV alongside a ROW one, the differences are huge.
 

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A good start on differences. As mentioned by others these lists can never be 100% with Alfa’s as markets and what Luigi picked out of the parts bin on the day are factors. (We tried with Supers and the document got quite large!)

Later ones also had 4 bolt front crossmembers which was a significant improvement for strength.
 

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A couple of things to note, firstly the GT Veloce certainly DID come with Burgundy/Wine dark red seats, as I owned one in the late '70s with them. Same material as the S1 1750 basket weave (which is impossible to get now). The car was originally a dark green with dark red. I also have in my possession 1 black Gt Veloce seat + 2 dark grey ones.
Also, the FIA reference to 1000 examples of Gp2 is the minimum production requirement for a model qualification for that class, it does NOT mean that only 1000 of this model were made. FIA documents are of little value in determining what was or wasn't manufactured as a particular model by the factories. Manufacturers tended to submit most models to the FIA just in case, plus add in a mix of parts as potential options from other models that may prove useful in motorsport. None of this means that cars containing optioned parts were ever actually constructed by the factory. Most of this was all on paper in the background & available as/ when the need arose. I would hate the think of the amount of time I spent in the 70s & 80s combing the FIA documents searching out all the possible available advantages & arguing my case with CAMS officials.
I agree with your summation of the 3 version of brakes, it seems to be the final dedicated ATE upright went right thru on 1300 & 1600jnr as well.
As for the Bathurst race cars, these were literally stock off the showroom floor. In fact, the MW Motors car which led the race for a short time with Paul Hawkins/Syd Fisher, went back onto the showroom floor the following week & bought by a lady solely because she liked the tan interior. I'm guessing it was a discounted 'demostrator' model....:)
 

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Another spanner in the works is custom orders. I had a friend custom ordered and picked his coupe up from the factory in 1966 and he had all sorts of little things that were different to what we normally see. Pity it was 15 years ago that he told me and I can't remember what I had for breakfast yesterday...
 

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Discussion Starter #10 (Edited)
It's simple if documentary evidence that the GT Veloce 1600 came in black or deep purple(amaranto) seats then it would be on the factory Certificate of origin (In Italian)!
So if you have such a build certificate place a copy on Alfabb so we can adjust the story. So with no evidence and claiming you had one 10 years after they were built, it could have been the previous owner had a local trimmer using the material available/used off the 1750 GTV or placing a dye on tan seats to make them appear black or aramanto.
As for placing different interpretations into the FIA 5126 document that was written 50 years ago, you have to use original cars and primary evidence/facts to give more certainty. I was under the impression the cars had to be built first before they gained FIA homologation. But then again none of us were there at FIA or the factory in 1965/66/67 so it will always be a debate we can have over a beer as to what they meant.
Steve
 

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The black Veloce seats I had were in the original pattern , I got them 20 years ago, the previous owner had stored them for many years, the fabric was very well worn through, I can't say for a fact that they were original covers from 1967 but its really unlikely they were not.
 

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20 years ago there was no correct basketweave material produced to recover the seats. So if they were the original pattern then I would assume they are original. Vin has been playing with these cars for longer than I have probably been alive so I highly value his informed input as well.
 

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Re Vin's comment above about re-sale of race cars, from the Bill Tuckey 'Bathurst Book', albeit mentioned in the 1967 race report,

Mildren's two white Alfas where offered for sale after the Gallagher, using this tongue-in-cheek approach:

"These cars have been carefully run in on private roads under the personal supervision of Alec Mildren himself. During the running in
period they were regularly inspected by highly trained Alfa mechanics. The brake pads, suspension and tyres were regularly inspected.
They were carefully driven by experienced drivers at constant speeds and the brakes were not used unless absolutely necessary".


I love it!

Cheers,

Paul.

P.S. for our Non-Australian contingent,
'Gallagher' - cigarette brand, sponsors of the Bathurst race at the time.
Alec Mildren - brave aussie who championed Alfa into the Australian market with some volume sales from the 60's onwards. Also got the T33 to Aus for racing etc.
 

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It's simple documentary evidence that the 1600 GT Veloce came in black or Burgundy/Wine dark red seats then it would be on the build certificate ! So if you have such a build certificate place a copy on Alfabb so we can adjust the story. So with no evidence and I had one 10 years after they were built , it could have been a local trimmer using the material available/used off the 1750 GTV.
As for placing different interpretations into the FIA 5126 document that was written 50 years ago, you have to use original cars and primary evidence/facts to give more certainty. I was under the impression the cars had to be built first before they gained FIA homologation. But then again none of us were there at FIA or the factory in 1966/67 so it will always be a debate we can have over a beer as to what they meant.
Steve
Hi Steve,
I can't supply a build certificate as I only owned/drove the car for maybe 18 months. I can assure you though that all the trim was original & showing signs of 10+ years of use. Following up build sheets from Alfa was not exactly common then, & nobody had any particular interest to do so for what was just a worn & used daily driver car then.
Other models also have factory anomalies: I have a '69 S1 1750, grey (not silver) with the wine interior. I have the original documents plus the sales person (David Wright, & importer John Emery) clearly remember the car & its first owner. However this combination is the ONLY example they ever recall, certainly in this state, & it was never ordered in the first place. It apparently just turned up among the various per-ordered colored cars when the ship unloaded!
For FIA there was a minimum build requirement, so 1000 examples is the min, even if say 5000 were made. I've never added up the GT Veloces numbers in Fusi for instance.
Cheers,
Vince.
 

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Discussion Starter #15 (Edited)
The black Veloce seats I had were in the original pattern , I got them 20 years ago, the previous owner had stored them for many years, the fabric was very well worn through, I can't say for a fact that they were original covers from 1967 but its really unlikely they were not.
I guess we are all forgetting as to when the third wave of spare parts suppliers started around the world, I think probably in the late 1970's so I'm not surprised people think black and deep purple(amaranto) vinyl seats in basket weave were original for the GT Veloce 1600.
I think trimmers working for theses suppliers could have easily been able to access basket weave in the 70's in black or amaranto to match the colours of the 1750 GTV, another for debate.
Or a privately commissioned trimmer could have easily ordered(in black or amaranto) a set of front seat base covers for a S1 1750 GTV and a set of front back rest covers for a S2 1750 GTV and had more than enough material to cut them up to make the front seats for the GT Veloce 1600 in black or amaranto!

What I'm saying is don't get confused with what the factory produced and what third party suppliers(third wave) and private individuals produced.
In https://www.classicalfaromeoregistry.com/type-105-giulias/gt there are 40 1600 GT Veloces listed in Australia and another 70 in the rest of the world a total of 110 cars out of 12,499 cars(Savill)[Tally up of numbers shows Fusi 12,501 LHD and 1,737 c.d/CKD a total of 14,238 cars].
Feel free to post your factory Certificate of origin(In Italian) that proves black or amaranto were original colours for the GT Veloce 1600.
Steve
 

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I guess all things are possible Steve, but logically why would a car just over 10 years old have re-upholstered seats, door & rear cards?
It is also most unlikely that they would manage to get the original factory vinyl back in the late '70s, unless bought as genuine Alfa spare parts & the cost of the whole job would be worth probably as much as the car! I recall only paying around $900 for the GT Veloce at the time & I know for sure the basket weave pattern was same as my other S1 1750 at the time. This I specifically recall because the Ford Escort guys at my work had a similar pattern only on the diagonal.
 

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I guess we are all forgetting as to when the third wave of spare parts suppliers started around the world, I think probably in the late 1970's
Steve, you seem to state many things as fact but are more your own observations and conclusions. Third wave of parts suppliers? Must have missed that document. You are also making assumptions of availability of materials from times where I hazard a guess that you weren't involved with these cars... Some of the guys commenting were involved with these cars in the 60's and 70's so I think first hand knowledge should be respected.


Is your 12,499 cars number total LHD & RHD? Lowest RHD chassis number was 298001 and the highest was 299870. CKD is also a factor and who knows what elements were locally sourced. Did you know Lightburn GT's had the trim made locally? That info is from a guy that was selling the cars at MW Motors in the mid 60's. As I said earlier nothing can be disregarded or set in stone with these cars.
I have photos of 58 Australian GT Veloces so far that I can match to chassis numbers plus many more from overseas.
 

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I have no first hand knowledge but the black 1967 Veloce seats I had ,( and still have but now they are a lovely shade of tan ), had the correct factory coverings and which were in storage from at latest 1990 where exactly in the condition you would expect very well used 20 year old seats to be.
 

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Like most of us, Steve bases his thoughts on a combination of what has been observed on cars & what is in parts books & model specification.
No one method is infallible so it has to be a balance of what is known & seen & what is printed, plus the historical time line of production: For instance, by that I mean no Sprint GT Veloce could have ever had a 2lt engine in, because the car build predates the existence of the engine. However, by the same token, the parts book DOES show the internal cabin light without a handle listed for GT, GTV & GTA. Now I personally have NEVER seen these on any other cars other than GTA. Presumably the parts listing is correct, & this seems to be backed up in the new Dasse series books,
but after all these years, I've never come across them & I've never found anyone else who has either. Just one example of anomalies we face. So I'm not surprised to hear that other people have also personally encountered things like a vinyl or carpet option that may or may not be in any given edition of a parts book for instance. I wouldn't be surprised at all if the factory commissioned a small run of alternative colors to try in a few cars to judge demand or just asses the final look, & those cars just went into the general mix for sale. I know from talking to the people who were in charge of pre-orders for our Australian cars that what was delivered was NEVER 100% what was ordered. Apparently about 60% was the average success rate, the rest being whatever was loaded onto the ship in Italy. I mean, what were they going to do, send 'em back?!
I'm having lunch tomorrow with both David Wright & John Emery, so I'll ask a bit further on their observations of the period anomalies.
PS, another I just thought of: how many people know that SOME early cam covers were painted hammer-tone silver on 101, 105 & 106? The bigger mystery is why?; apparently when paint removed there was never any obvious flaws to hide....
 

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Discussion Starter #20 (Edited)
When it comes to 105 cars I have owned (of which there have been atleast 15):

Five GT Veloce 1600s of which 4 are RHD one LHD.
Three 1300 GTj two step noses and one smooth nose.
Six 1750 GTVs of which four were S1s and two S2.
One GTV 2L.

I have 14 of the 15 factory build sheets of my cars which I consider to be facts not just observations. These details plus the factory parts catalogue in Italian are primary documents/sources (not English translated documents which are secondary documents/sources) complement each other to provide a strong argument.

Complete Alfa Romeo cars were imported to Australia, but I doubt Alfa Romeo attracted a local content component as Alfa Romeo was not present in Australia in 1966/67 and it did not have manufacturing plant in Australia in 1966/67 like Toyota where the imported 1976 Toyota Corona that had wool seats made from wool cloth from the Australian Onkaparinga wool mills.

But in saying that it may have been possible for Alfa GT Veloce 1600 car body shells in primer to be imported into Australia as a spare part and assembled here in Australia by Mildren or one of the Wrights. So it's possible they put non standard interiors in the cars, but the catch is your car was a body shell part and never had a factory listed interior colour or a factory listed exterior colour and this will show up on the FCA Heritage Certificate of Origin as interior colour none and exterior colour none.
The last listings I have of Wright and Mildren are
June 1968 when Wright imported one of my cars
March 1969 when Mildren imported one of my cars
Then October 1970 when Alfa Romeo Australia imported one of my cars.

This I think means only cars imported after October 1970 when Alfa Romeo Australia imported cars could be considered to be factory authorised changes to the interiors. So this means any changes Mildren and Wright made to the interiors of cars be they full cars or body shells are not original to factory specs and since the last GT Veloce 1600 is listed in 1968 two years before the factory took over I doubt black or amaranto (deep purple) are original interior factory colours. I do accept that any variations or anomalies which Mildren and or Wright initiated were cultural, that is non factory initiated so are non standard. So I doubt FCA Heritage build Certificate will list a 1600 GT Veloce with black or amaranto (deep purple) are original interior factory colours.

If you have the body number of a GT Veloce 1600 RHD or LHD 1600 you think had an original interior colour of black or an original interior colour of amaranto (deep purple) then get the factory Certificate of Origin in Italian and post it.
Here is the link it will cost about 77 Euros
https://www.fcaheritage.com/en-uk/classic-services/alfa-romeo-certificate-origin

I'm happy to be corrected and I'll even pay you to so you can prove I'm wrong!

I will pay $30US to the first person that presents a FCA Heritage Certificate of origin(In Italian) for a GT Veloce 1600 (not an e-mail or English translation version of the certificate) that was built at the factory with a nero (black) interior vinyl seats and door cards.
and
I will pay $30US to the first person that presents a FCA Heritage Certificate of origin (In Italian) for a GT Veloce 1600 (not an e-mail or English translation version of the certificate) that was built at the factory with an amaranto (deep purple) interior vinyl seats and door cards or burgundy(wine colour) interior vinyl seats and door cards.

As you can see I'm prepared to entertain both sides of the argument But the argument that the GT Veloce 1600 original interior colours also included black and amaranto (deep purple), is a weak argument. I'm sure the Concours d'Elegance judges are open minded and will tend away from the weaker argument.
Regards,
Steve
 
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