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Discussion Starter #1
Howdy - well, it;s well over 100 here in Phoenix, so, for me anyways, driving without A/C, not an option. 2 years back... I had A/C put "back" into my '84... the guy set it as Freeze12. Have never really been all too thrilled with the temperature etc... blamed that on temps over 100 though... anyways, as of yesterday a.m., my A/C only blows warm air. I see no bubbles in the glass... I see the compressor kick on and the pulley spinning etc... but only get warm air.

Not sure what is going on here... but feel it's been blowing sort of only luke cool anyways, and never really cold.

So, am wondering:

- Can you evacuate Freeze 12 and simply replace with R12?

- Is r12 "colder" than Freeze 12?

It't HOT out here. :D

Thanks folks.

Ron F.
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You were better off with R12 and yes, evacuate the system, not a bad idea to replace the reciever/drier while you're doing all of this...
 

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Discussion Starter #3
No other gotchas or anything.... just drain out the old and have the R12 installed... am hoping the R12 is indeed colder than Freeze12...

I was a bit worried in that I had an Alfa Mechanic tell me not to put R12 into the car... (the one who did the original install), something about too much on the heads etc...?

Thanks again!

Ron F.
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something about too much on the heads etc...?

Thanks again!

Ron F.
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????I hope he was talking about the head on the compressor-even then he lied. Enviroment, maybe, heads, no, not the cylinder, not the compressor heads, just maybe his over"head"...
 

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Could be wrong :rolleyes: but I think using R12 is illegal and even if you find it, it is going to be probibitly (sp) expensive. You are correct in that a Freeze 12 (politically correct R12 replacement) system won't blow as cold as an R12. You best choice (IMO) is to correctly convert to a R134 system. When I say correctly convert, I don't mean one of those $30 retrofit kits. It will probably pay for itself (well, I guess that depends on how old you are and how long you keep the car:)) but living where you do, you need A/C.
 

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Real R12 is not that pricey anymore, as demand has been dropping last few years. Plenty is still available. The problem is finding an AC technician who is willing to go to the trouble of reworking your system correctly, finding leaks, replacing seals, flushing and evacuating the system, drying it completely, taking meticulous care to recharge it with the right lubricant and freon. Once this is done, it will work great for years. R12 is much better than 134 (in an R12 car), it operates at lower compression figures at the compressor and so takes less horsepower with less stress on the compressor.

My '92 Pathfinder still has the original R12 in it and works very well. The important thing is to spend the money and have it done right the first time.
 

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Real R12 is not that pricey anymore, as demand has been dropping last few years. Plenty is still available. The problem is finding an AC technician who is willing to go to the trouble of reworking your system correctly, finding leaks, replacing seals, flushing and evacuating the system, drying it completely, taking meticulous care to recharge it with the right lubricant and freon. Once this is done, it will work great for years. R12 is much better than 134 (in an R12 car), it operates at lower compression figures at the compressor and so takes less horsepower with less stress on the compressor.

My '92 Pathfinder still has the original R12 in it and works very well. The important thing is to spend the money and have it done right the first time.
My experience was about 3 yrs ago. I paid about $300 to "my guy" :rolleyes::rolleyes: for an evac & recharge with Freeze 12. He was too lazy (and I guess I didn't pay enough:(:eek:) to find the itzy *****y leak and I would have gotten better use of the $300 by putting lighter fluid on the pile of bills, lighting them and rolling my hands over the fire for warmth.:mad:
 

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Could be wrong :rolleyes: but I think using R12 is illegal and even if you find it, it is going to be probibitly (sp) expensive. You are correct in that a Freeze 12 (politically correct R12 replacement) system won't blow as cold as an R12. You best choice (IMO) is to correctly convert to a R134 system. When I say correctly convert, I don't mean one of those $30 retrofit kits. It will probably pay for itself (well, I guess that depends on how old you are and how long you keep the car:)) but living where you do, you need A/C.
R12 is not illegal, it is only sold to those of us with an EPA Liscense, problem being, it is usually only available in 30lbs cylinders. R12's price has not been dropping around me, R12 is actually on the rise as best as I can tell. $687.58 for just 30 pounds (most cars only take 3-6 pounds). Then again, you get what you pay for. http://www.johnstonesupply.com/101/tabid/1780/default.aspx?Product_Code=b92-037
Sorry, I can't give my account login information for you to check the price...
 

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It's not the freon it's the technician. I'm running freeze 12 in my 86 Bronco and it blows 35' from the vents. I converted my 85 Honda to R134 and it would blow 39' with the outside temp in the high 90s. Check around and find a tech that's not too lazy or ignorant to get the pressures balanced correctly. Everyone says R12 is better just because any dummy can make it blow cold. With the other types of freon you actually have to know what you are doing to get it right
 

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Check around and find a tech that's not too lazy or ignorant
:(Therein lies the problemo. No one up here like that. Everyone is out for the quick buck without actually doing any work - guess because like you said they are either too lazy or too ignorant.
 

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Everyone says R12 is better just because any dummy can make it blow cold. With the other types of freon you actually have to know what you are doing to get it right
That remark angered me! No, either R12, Freeze or hotshot 12 even R134A, you have to know what you are doing. R12 is what his system was designed to work with, hence, it will work a lot better in it.
 

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David, I'm sorry if I angered you. I'm only speaking from experience. I specialized in freon conversions and trouble shooting AC systems for the last 7 years of my career. I do know that a significant number of the trouble shooting jobs I got were because the other techs didn't understand enough about how the system operates to be able to tweak the system to operate on anything the engineers didn't specify.
 

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David, I'm sorry if I angered you. I'm only speaking from experience. I specialized in freon conversions and trouble shooting AC systems for the last 7 years of my career. I do know that a significant number of the trouble shooting jobs I got were because the other techs didn't understand enough about how the system operates to be able to tweak the system to operate on anything the engineers didn't specify.
It was the remark that anything can work on one system and anyone can make R12 do it, thats all. I'm sorry, I must be PMSing or something. Fact is, compressors are designed to handle only one type of freon, I now know you do conversions, so I won't go into those details, all I can say is, if it was R12, that should be all that is used in it, unless the compressor gets replaced. I've done several conversions and have yet to have a 100% successful one and I did pay attention as most were on my own vehicle...Once again, I'll post my EPA card for HVAC work. I've got more years on this than you and, again, I'm not saying what you are doing is wrong, but a system designed (mainly compressor-given oils can be removed from the system) for a certain freon will only work best for it, I had a chart on my comp showing the different pressure levels, NONE matched R12, not even the so called conversion type. R12 is in a world all of its own. R12 whoops 134A's butt too as far as cooling capacity.
 

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I calculate that as $29/lb for R12. That is cheaper than I can remember when the last time I serviced an AC system. I thought it was going to be up around $60+/lb. Maybe the service shop doubles their cost to make some money on the deal. I heard that if you can put in a .1 lb or more in some systems, they can cool better, but you run the risk of over pressurizing the system and blowing something out. True?

R134a is easier to get and most systems that have been installed in cars are now using R134a. I can understand why some one would want to convert over to R134a for those reasons. How hard is it to get the oil out of a system before recharging with R134a?

It is hot everywhere. A good A/C system should keep you comfortable enough even on a 100 deg. day.
 

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I calculate that as $29/lb for R12. That is cheaper than I can remember when the last time I serviced an AC system. I thought it was going to be up around $60+/lb. Maybe the service shop doubles their cost to make some money on the deal. I heard that if you can put in a .1 lb or more in some systems, they can cool better, but you run the risk of over pressurizing the system and blowing something out. True?

R134a is easier to get and most systems that have been installed in cars are now using R134a. I can understand why some one would want to convert over to R134a for those reasons. How hard is it to get the oil out of a system before recharging with R134a?

It is hot everywhere. A good A/C system should keep you comfortable enough even on a 100 deg. day.
Of course shops up the price for profit, that is how they stay in business:) R134A is good to use, but it is better if you have the right compressor for its pressures http://www.jegs.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/product_10001_10002_753085_-1_11063. We do have SD508 compressors in our cars, wether or not these are the right ones is questionable, however, Jegs has a 100% satisfaction guarantee for upto 30 days. Order one and compare to your compressor, if it is correct-BINGO-let us all know these are the right ones, if not send it back for a full refund. You can get blowby in the compressor, effectively rendering it useless by using the wrong type of freon. I've seen the conversions kits blow up compressors (internally, not literally blowing up) and that was following the directions to a "t". The only sure way to get the oil out is to install a new filter/drier and flush the lines out with a residue free solvent.
 

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It was the remark that anything can work on one system and anyone can make R12 do it, thats all. I'm sorry, I must be PMSing or something. Fact is, compressors are designed to handle only one type of freon, I now know you do conversions, so I won't go into those details, all I can say is, if it was R12, that should be all that is used in it, unless the compressor gets replaced. I've done several conversions and have yet to have a 100% successful one and I did pay attention as most were on my own vehicle...Once again, I'll post my EPA card for HVAC work. I've got more years on this than you and, again, I'm not saying what you are doing is wrong, but a system designed (mainly compressor-given oils can be removed from the system) for a certain freon will only work best for it, I had a chart on my comp showing the different pressure levels, NONE matched R12, not even the so called conversion type. R12 is in a world all of its own. R12 whoops 134A's butt too as far as cooling capacity.
I doubt if you have been working on AC systems longer than I have (considering you are younger than my son by 6 years) I SPECIALIZED in AC for 7 years. I didn't bother to scan my card because I'm not impressed with credentials(show me you actually know what you are doing) I have never replaced a compressor just to do a conversion. As a matter of fact the only time my supplier even cares what type of freon you are running is if the compressor is oil charged. I'm not working on HVAC I'm certified in MACS don't confuse the 2 that's comparing pigs to cows. After you do your first 100 conversions and have them on the road for 2+ years come back and tell me you can match my experience
 

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D Douglas,

Thanks for sharing your HVAC Certification (twice)- I was able to put my name on it and buy some R12. Why waste time taking a test?

Okay- just a joke...

Duke
 
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