[Alfa_Japan]

Dear board readers & posters,

Whilst trying to understand the history of the Giulietta Berlina & Giulietta Berlina TI I ran into many unclear (for me at least) issues. Of course I went to the website of the well known Giulietta register but that unfortunately doesn't help at all For the history section there is a link to a shallow Wikipedia page. Other Internet information and the books I have available also don't bring any clarification. I hope somebody on this board can help me clarify my unclear points;
1.) When the Giulietta Berlina & TI received a completely new grille in the sixties the side indicator light on the front fender changed geometry from the previous round into a squarish shape. Was the side indicator light throughout the rest of Berlina history the same? If not does anybody have the details?
2.) What are the differences in appearance between a "normal" Berlina & a TI? Where these differences consistent throughout the lifetime?
3.) When was the dashboard updated for the Berlina & TI
4.) Was the front grille update made in 1962 when the Giulia was introduced to still atract some customers even though the successor became available?
5.) I once saw a picture of a Giulietta Berlina prototype with flags sticked on it to test its aerodynamics, the grille seemed quite different to the final production version. Is there anything known about this prototype?
6.) Is there any good literature on the Giulietta Berlina & Berlina TI? The majority of books on the Giulietta are focussed on the more popular Sprint & Spider vehicles.

Too bad the differences between the several stages throughout the Berlina lifetime are not clearly listed somewhere, I hope somebody here can help me out.

Any reply will be appreciated

 

[Alfa_Japan]

I forgot to mention another point which is currently not clear to me. Early Berlina's don't seem to have a rearview mirror on the drivers' side door, later ones sometimes have. When was the rearview mirror on the door introduced for the Berlina and TI models? I also found some English / South African / Australian vehicle pictures with the mirror on the right hand side door, was this done by Alfa or was this done in the market where the vehicles were sold?

 

[elsonite]

Giulietta sedan

Alfa Japan,

You have a lot of good questions, I will answer a few to get you started. First you are right, there is very little literature dedicated to Giulietta sedans. These cars were unloved for many years. Getting information is not been easy.

First, I have owned a first series (early 1956) for 20 years. There are factory photos of the very first cars, possibly "pre-production" cars that have some very minor details that are different to what we call the First Series. Too much to detail here but for example, the first car (just referred to) had a generic tail light housing, the "production" cars had a dedicated, wrap-around housing (with 3 bulbs instead of 2). They look about the same but are different. Also, the first car did not have an ornament on the hood, series cars do. I can list a half dozen or so of these.

I first noticed trim changes around early '57. The headlights go from the 6 inch to the 7 inch. The 6 inch light is the same as the 1900 Zagato and the first couple years of the Sprint (and Spring lightweight). About a year after that the grills change, and change every couple years or so through the series. You are right the side markers went from the "tear drop" on the top of the fender up near the door to long markers by the headlight. The bumpers's changed a couple times becoming less rounded. The best way to detail each of these changes is to talk to owners that have the different versions. There are several on the BB.

The dash, the first series dash had a "football" shaped instrument unit. The first of the berlina TI's had the same instrument unit with two round gauges (80mm Veglia) added to the sides of it. Thes were a tach and H20 temperature. These instruments are unique to the Giulietta sedan.

Rear view mirrors. Generally, outside mirrors were not installed by Alfa. Frequently this was done by the dealer. At least on the early cars. So there is no "standard" here.

I hope this gets you started. Dan

PS, if the photo comes through, it's a factory publicity photo from 1956.

 

[Alfa_Japan]

Dear elsonite,

Thank you for your reply and effort to clarify some details. The picture you posted for example doesn't seem to show any indicator lights on the front fenders? If my understanding is correct the indicator lights are as follows;
1.) First series - no indicator light on front wings - till 195?
2.) Second series - round/teardrop indicator lights on front wings - till 1960?
3.) Third series - rectangular indicator lights of front wings - from 1960 onwards?

I will try to post some pictures to make my questions a bit more clear. The prototype I mentioned which was used for aerodynamic test have a significantly different grille, more in the style of a Mini.

It is possible to find some details (mostly pictures only) about Berlina's / TI's modified by coachbuilders in for example the book "Curiousalfa" by Stefano Salvetti, however detailed information about the evolvement of the Alfa Romeo factory built Berlina's / TI's is hard to come by.

 

[Il Vecchio]

Alfa Japan,

You have a lot of good questions, I will answer a few to get you started. First you are right, there is very little literature dedicated to Giulietta sedans. These cars were unloved for many years. Getting information is not been easy.

First, I have owned a first series (early 1956) for 20 years. There are factory photos of the very first cars, possibly "pre-production" cars that have some very minor details that are different to what we call the First Series. Too much to detail here but for example, the first car (just referred to) had a generic tail light housing, the "production" cars had a dedicated, wrap-around housing (with 3 bulbs instead of 2). They look about the same but are different. Also, the first car did not have an ornament on the hood, series cars do. I can list a half dozen or so of these.

I first noticed trim changes around early '57. The headlights go from the 6 inch to the 7 inch. The 6 inch light is the same as the 1900 Zagato and the first couple years of the Sprint (and Spring lightweight). About a year after that the grills change, and change every couple years or so through the series. You are right the side markers went from the "tear drop" on the top of the fender up near the door to long markers by the headlight. The bumpers's changed a couple times becoming less rounded. The best way to detail each of these changes is to talk to owners that have the different versions. There are several on the BB.

The dash, the first series dash had a "football" shaped instrument unit. The first of the berlina TI's had the same instrument unit with two round gauges (80mm Veglia) added to the sides of it. Thes were a tach and H20 temperature. These instruments are unique to the Giulietta sedan.

Rear view mirrors. Generally, outside mirrors were not installed by Alfa. Frequently this was done by the dealer. At least on the early cars. So there is no "standard" here.

I hope this gets you started. Dan

PS, if the photo comes through, it's a factory publicity photo from 1956.

Dan,

Great response. Glad you have joined!

-Peter Becronis

 

[elsonite]

Giulietta sedan

Hey Peter, hope you are doing well! Thank you for the kind words.

Alfa Japan, notice it this photo of a approximately '57 berlina, the turn indicator is, as I said before, on the top of the fender close to the door. No other Giulietta had the light in this spot. (This also has the 7" headlights I mentioned before).

They did change to a front indicator, I think in late '58 when they went to the next version of the grills. Similar to the grill change in the sprint when we saw the "egg crate."

Again, for specifics about the factory changes in the Giulietta sedan I think it best to find owners with each version. You might try and make contact with Andrew Watry, here on the BB, he keeps the berlina register and each version should be represented there. Good luck.

Dan

 

[AlfistiSA]

Berlina's and Ti's

Hi Guys

There are 3 distinct Series of Giulietta Sedans with a myriad of little changes along each series.

The list below is by no means definative as so little research has been dedicated to the Sedans, but will help you identify the cars at a glance

Series I - 750 cars built up to end '58 or early '59 - front grille consists of heart, eyebrows and single chrome strake

Series II - Interim cars some 750 but most 101 built up to approximately end '61 - front grille consists of heart, eyebrows and separate chrome front grilles with 4 horizontal strakes

Series III - 101 cars, with the 1 piece front grille where the heart resembles the 101 Sprint style.

The B&W publicity shot is of 3 '55 or '56 Berlina's - they have a hood ornament & no black plastic badge in the hubcap

The black car is Peter Yaxley's '58 Ti, chassis 1488*05678, note that it does not have the hood ornament of the Berlina, but does have the black plastic badge in the centre of the hubcap

The burgundy car is mine, a '61 Series II RHD Ti assembled out here in South Africa, chassis 10109*00647 - note the rubber inserts on the over riders


Mirrors were Dealer fitments & the reason for fitting mirrors on the RH door of the SA cars is that the ones assembled out here were RHD

Ciao
Greig
Some 750's
Some 101's
Some 105's
Some others

 

[HooliganSuper]

63 ti

Here is a Photo of my '63 TI (third Series).
Note the different grilles etc.
Ciao,
Bill Gillham
Jefferson Oregon

 

[rcess]

Here are photos of my '60 Berlina (2nd Series). The car is original except for an external respray in the original color.

 

[HooliganSuper]

Lexington

Bob,
Are you going to bring your Giulietta sedan to the AROC convention Lexington? Claus Menzel is bringing his '55 Berlina and I am bringing my '63 TI, Seeing them all in one place would be cool!
Ciao,
Bill Gillham

 

[rcess]

Bill,
I'd really love to get the Berlina to Kentucky so we could have a 1st, 2nd and 3rd series all together. But I don't think I'll be able to make it.

 

[rcess]

The following photo of the dash in my '60 Berlina shows an interesting accessory item that was available for the the Giulietta Berlina and presumably also the TI; a steering wheel lock. Insert a key in the key slot below the flasher button, turn the key clockwise, pull, and a cylinder emerges that limits the movement of the steering wheel.

Although Berlinas did not come with coolant temperature gauges, the previous owner of my car had an operating temperature gauge sitting loose in the glove box, which I have mounted below the dash as shown.

 

[goliardico]

Here are photos of my '60 Berlina (2nd Series). The car is original except for an external respray in the original color.

Beautiful Berlina! What color is that? Is it Grigio Alba? I'm restoring my 56 right now and the original color was Grigio Alba, but I don't have any good photos of what that's supposed to look like.

Thanks!

Afshin

 

[rcess]

Yes, it is Grigio Alba.

 

[fisken]

Hej på er
I have a Berlina Ti from -62,serie 3.The most intresting is that the front AND the rear wings are mutch bigger on serie 3.Even the hood is bigger and don`t fit serie 1 or
serie 2.

 

[Alfa_Japan]

Very interesting posts from all!! Good to see that not only the Sprints & Spiders are treated with respect.

I understood that there are 2 different types of dashboards, does this mean that the dashboard for a Berlina & Berlina TI used to be the same and the dashboard was updated with the introduction of the 101 series?

Regarding the rectangular front wing indicator light I`m slightly confused. I would have estimated these to have been introduced with the 3rd series, but recently I`ve seen a picture of an Alfa assembly line where the rectangular light was present on an earlier vehicle?

 

[philippeclaude]

Hello,
I have read a lot of contradictory information about the various evolutions of the Berlina and Berlina TI over the years and how different they were from the Sprint engine.
Can somebody summarize them ? and also if the engine number is a good indication of the version ?
Thank you very much

 

[elsonite]

Giulietta sedan engine

PhillipeClaude,

I will attempt a brief summary of the Giulietta sedan engines. As in my response to AlfaJapan's first question in this thread, I am only offering a starting place. In the words of Greig at the beginning of the thread in reference to the versions of the car, "3 distinct Series of Giulietta Sedans with a myriad of little changes along each series." Further, may I suggest that the information "out there" may be more confusing than contradictory. As a starting place think of it this way.

The Giulietta Berlina was introduced with a relatively pedestrian 50 (or as high as 53 depending on the source) hp engine, the tamest of all Giulietta engines. Most easily identified visually by the single barrel Solex carb. The Sprints and Spiders never had this carb/manifold combo. The Giulietta TI came with the two barrel Solex like the carb that did come on the early Sprint and Spider and the Normale version of both. The Giulietta sedan never came with the twin DCO3 or DCOE that the Veloce cars came with. Of couse, there were other differences with the engines, certainly cams but most of the engine changes came on the Veloce's.

In the photo (clockwise), Berlina only Solex, TI/Normal Solex, Veloce only (not sedan) DCO3 and later DCOE.

Again, I will say a myriad of little changes in each version along the way.

And yes, the engine numbers are very useful to determine where they come in the series. The numbering is does not cross over to the Sprints and Spiders though.

Hope this helps. Dan

 

[AlfistiSA]

Hi Guys

New Berlina & Ti hubcaps are available

The Berlina had an all chrome hubcap with a pressed metal badge in the centre & the Ti had the standard Giulietta version with the black & silver badge in the centre – Both are available brand new – see here - (http://www.classicalfa.com/shop/category34_1.htm) check out item WH015, Alfa used the same hubcap on the 105 Series Giulia 1300 Ti and 105 GT 1300 Junior up to '69.

Check out the standard 750/101 hubcaps available as well - I'd go for the 3rd last option - # 750-102 over the WH005 as they appear to be $4 cheaper for the same item

Usual disclaimer – not related to the vendor in any way - I’m not even on the same half of the planet as they are

Ciao
Greig

 

[jg1053]

Hi Greig,
Could you post the link to the hubcaps.
Thanks
Jim