Some more detailed info from John Hertzman
I managed to find the info below by doing a bit of an internet search. John Hertzman is one of the most knowledgeable Alfisti around, so his info is usually very correct.
Hopefully, this will stay archived here on the BB now. Credit goes to Dr. John Hertzman, the Alfa Digest and all others involved (including Andrew here on the BB).
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1998 09:42:41 EST
From:
[email protected]
Subject: T.I., T.I. Super, and Super
In AD7-276 Don Suiter asks about an Alfa Romeo TI Super at an auction,
wondered if it is the same one which was in Denver for a couple years,
mentions that both were white, and asks for "anything related to this model of
Super".
The first thing to know is that these are all permutations of the boxy four-
door sedan which established Alfa as a prime contender in the ugly-is-chic
sweepstakes. 575,000 cars were built with this body, 71,000 of them Giulia
T.I.s, 504 of them Giulia T. I. Supers, and 124,000 of them Giulia Supers. The
remaining model terms were fairly simple; they split into 1300 and 1600
subsystems along with "T.I.", "Super" or "S" qualifiers.
As for both of the ones he had met being white, all T.I.Supers were,
originally- Biancospino, Hawthorn White, just slightly warmer than the
Porcelain white, china white, biancco P.F. used on Spiders generally.
The cars were basic homologation specials, weighing 910 kg as opposed to 1000
kg for the basic Giulia T.I. and 1020 kg for the Sprint GT Veloce. Similarly
with the engine; The Duetto Veloce and GT Veloce had 109 CV, the Giulia Sprint
Specials had 112 CV and the T.I had 115, the same as the "street" version of
the GTA which had an identical listed top speed, 185 km/h. Odd numbers, if
d'A-T is correct the only difference between the T.I. and "customer" GTA
engines is the number of spark plugs.
As with the GTA, the number required built for homologation purposes was far
greater than the number needed for factory-supported racing needs. The
popularity of the T.I. Super is said to have led directly to the development
of the Giulia Super which was introduced in the same show season as the GTA,
the 1965 Geneva show for the Super and the 1965 Amsterdam and Geneva shows for
the GTA.
Lastly, the serial numbers game. The car is described as a 1964 Alfa Romeo TI
Super, Chassis #AR59133 with Eng. #005100187. The chassis number given would
be preceded by three giving family (105) and two giving the subset (09 in this
case) for a total of 105.09.59133 , and I can't find anything like that in
Fusi or D'Amico- Tabucch. Also did not find any 1600 engine numbers which
cointained the string 510. Probably simple transcribing errors, slips of the
pen-
John H.
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Date: Tue, 24 Nov 1998 21:18:11 -0700
From: Don Suiter
Subject: Tks, re: Giulia TI question
Hello,
My thanks to the John H for his well written reply about the 64 Giulia
TI which I had viewed over on ebay. Thanks to Andrew W. for his
off-digest input. For the curious the Alfa has come back online at ebay
with a new higher price. I wish the seller good luck, I just wish I had
a few of the GTA parts on my junior.
For the curious, you can view the ebay auction at this link.
http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=43976049
The standard disclaimers, I do not have any $$$ interest in this car,
just curious about it's history.
Best of T-day to all,
Don
- --
Don Suiter - Vintage Racing - RMVR Alfa GTjr #81
ACOC Webmaster -
http://www.csd.net/~suiter/acoc.html
ErEc Imaging -
http://www.donsuiter.com/
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NOTE: here is a COPY of the Auction page (700k jpg too)
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Date: Wed, 25 Nov 98 06:53:58 -0500
From: "Andrew Watry"
Subject: TI Supers
Anyone know of an available Alfa book (or magazine article) that
covers Giulia TI Supers well? I have most of the usual suspects,
including Fusi, the Illustrated Buyers Guide, Pat Braden's Giulia
book, and the Brookland Giulia sedan article compilation. Lots on
TIs, lots on Supers, and the other street variations, but there's very
little on TI Supers. Was it ever tested or previewed in R&T or C/D?
Thanks
Andrew Watry
Berlina Register
59 Sprint
67 Super (new headliner and window seals; carpets next)
69 Berlina (FOR SALE; offers entertained)
74 GTV
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Date: Wed, 25 Nov 1998 22:17:53 -0800
From: "Steve Schaeffer"
Subject: Tony Adriaensens book "Allegeritta"
Has a few pages on it, and some nice photos. If you don't already own this
book, you should.
I'll paraphrase the book a bit:
Introduced to the press on the Monza circuit on April 24, 1963 as the
competition version of the Giulia Ti. Big cloverleafs on the front wings,
the type indication on the back panel and the little grilles in place of the
headlamps placed in the middle. Campy aluminum wheels with 155x15 tyres
and a modified dashboard gave an extra sporty look. Thin size steel was
used for the body work and all sound -deadening mat'l was removed. The
front seats were lightweight bucket seats and the opening mechanism for the
Plexiglas windows in the back doors was removed. This resulted in a loss
of weight of about 100kg in comparison to the Ti. The engine was the same
as the one used in the Giulia SS. Fuel admission was thru a single
electrical fuel pump in combo with twin Weber 45DCOE14 carburettors. A fuel
tank with a capacity of 80-100 liters could be fitted on request. Brake
power came from Four Dunlop discs. The mid-placed headlamps were removed
and the holes were used as extra air ducts.
In the early stages of Autodelta's activities, and unidentified no. of TI
Super cars were prepared for racing. These versions boasted 160 bhp at
7500rpm. It has been impossible to find the exact modifications that were
carried out nor the total production no. of the Autodelta TI Super. The no.
of those special versions was probably very low as Autodelta was at the time
fully occupied with developing the TZ models and the GTA.
A remarkable fact is that the registering of ths car in the GT category for
the 1963 Tour de France edition, a race in which it took fourth place
overall behind three Ferrari's. There were only 501 TI supers produced.
Happy Thanksgiving USA!
Steve Schaeffer
http://www.luxline.com/turner
Seattle, WA
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Date: Sun, 29 Nov 1998 23:19:21 EST
From:
[email protected]
Subject: T.I. Supers and "thinner steel" bodywork
In AD7-284 Andrew Watry asks:
>>Anyone know of an available Alfa book (or magazine article) that
covers Giulia TI Supers well? I have most of the usual suspects,
including Fusi, the Illustrated Buyers Guide, Pat Braden's Giulia
book, and the Brookland Giulia sedan article compilation. Lots on
TIs, lots on Supers, and the other street variations, but there's very
little on TI Supers. Was it ever tested or previewed in R&T or C/D?<<
Not in R & T for sure, and C & D is probably equally sure; my clippings files
(from cutting-up C & D's predecessors and other such) have every snippet on
the "BMW"-disguised Giulia prototype, Colli Promiscua and the original open
Tubolare Zagato, and I'm fairly sure I wouldn't have missed the T.I. Super in
an American newsstand publication. The Brooklands Giulia Berlina compilation
probably has everything that had been published IN ENGLISH, but that is the
rub. There was bound to have been a thorough coverage in Quattroruote, and
there is bound to have been some great material in retrospective articles in
either (or both) Ruoteclassiche or La Manovella e Ruote a Raggi. Inquiries to
the publishers (Editoriale Domus for the first two, I think Nada for the last)
might produce a reference. Or a large-hearted Italian enthusiast on the list
might help? Please?
In AD7-287 Steve Schaeffer furnished some interesting material from Tony
Adriaensens book "Allegeritta", which I don't have, and he is right, one
should. One point mentioned was that thinner steel was used for the bodywork,
a ploy which I am familiar with from the various touring-car championships of
the nineties and also from some USA factory-supported drag racing in which
"chemical milling" was used for controlled selective thinning of panels, a
more exotic concept than just punching-out a thinner sheet.
D'Amico-Tabucchi's remarks about the Giulia T.I. and the G.T.A. do not support
the "thinner steel" concept, but they are not infallible. One other authority
is Alfa's own Spare Parts Catalog. The edition I got in 1967 when I bought my
Super consists of a basic Giulia T.I. Parts Catalog, a Supplement covering
parts used on the Giulia T.I.Super which differed from those in the T.I., and
a further Supplement covering parts used on the Giulia Super which differed
from those in the T.I. It is not always possible to tell "how" different-
often one hole punched in a deck-lid for a different piece of trim, or in an
engine-bay sidewall to mount a different junction block, generates a different
part number. It is, however, possible to tell when there is absolutely no
difference whatsoever. There are many fascinating details. Page one in the
body section, for instance, has the complete T.I. Super body shell, painted
and trimmed, with two parts numbers, one for the 'touring model' and the other
for the 'racing model', but it also has a single number for the 'body,
unpainted'. Moving on into the body structural parts there is a steering
column support for disk-braked cars, suggesting that some T.I. Supers were
still drum-braked. There is also one other flooring part for disk-braked
T.I.Supers.
There are different parts numbers for the hood, the trunk lid, the rear doors,
and for thirteen or so structural panels- floors, inner side-rail fillers and
the like- but there are none for the roof, front doors, front fenders, rear
quarter panels, or front or rear fixed panels, indicating that these parts did
not differ from the corresponding parts on the base T.I. This, to me, casts
doubt on the "thinner steel" concept. It would also seem to me that if going
to that length to save the weight it would have been easy enough to leave the
basic stressed hull standard and punch-out all the unstressed hinged panels -
four doors, deck, and hood- in aluminum, as Rover (and undoubtedly others) had
done a decade earlier, and as I believe Alfa did on the steel-bodied Junior
Zagato.
The rest of the parts book comparisons offer a multitude of fascinating
inferences, for those so inclined.
John H.
