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Discussion Starter #1
Hey Folks,
I am trying to advise a customer about the true current values of a 63 Giulia Spider. He wants to see if it is worth doing work to it to bring it to a driver level condition [paint, basic mechanical, interiour] to sell.
Now, I will do the work but I don't want to push it on him without some idea of the actual current market.
I see cars on evilbay often, most of them very nice, but don't know the sales history.
I know this is vague, I don't know how else to put it.

What is a decent, clean driver, not concours, but would show well at a cars and coffee car sell for?
 

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Sprint Veloce August, 1974 at Home 001.jpg

MGTF and Austin Healey 12-5-14 013.jpg I would ask him what the car is worth and not what is the market value. I restored my father's 101 Sprint Veloce that has been in our family since it was new and has become a part of me. I rode in the car in 1961 and was given the car in 1968. The car was worth about $1,000 in 1974 and now can exceed $100,000. I believe that a well restored Giulia Spider is worth as much as $80,000. I took a photo of my Sprint Veloce and my brother's 1970 Boss 302 Mustang last Saturday December 6, 1914.
 

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Hey Folks,
I am trying to advise a customer about the true current values of a 63 Giulia Spider. He wants to see if it is worth doing work to it to bring it to a driver level condition [paint, basic mechanical, interiour] to sell.
Now, I will do the work but I don't want to push it on him without some idea of the actual current market.
I see cars on evilbay often, most of them very nice, but don't know the sales history.
I know this is vague, I don't know how else to put it.

What is a decent, clean driver, not concours, but would show well at a cars and coffee car sell for?
Very dicey question...valid, too... with a lot of "ifs" .. "Decent drivers" is a wide range to many people as you know. "Restored" means a whole lot of different things too and how much is done with sweat equity. If it runs and doesn't smoke and I needed a project, I just couldn't stop at just "paint, basic mechanical, interior" that can lead to a "money pit" out of control...I would never pay over something in the low teens.. It sounds like highly patina'ed cars as he is trying to get to are in the mid 30's- low 40's and not on a steep curve at this time. Flipping cars by doing what he wants to do is not a good idea IMO.. It leads to short cuts and sleepless nights. He's much better off buying on the soft side and flipping than investing more on a gamble. Uncle
 

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He wants to see if it is worth doing work to it to bring it to a driver level condition [paint, basic mechanical, interiour] to sell.
The cost estimate would of course also depend on the condition the car is in right now, is it a total basket case with maybe missing engine or other vital part as the worst case scenario, or is it a project that actually doesn´t need that much to get it road worthy ???

Why don´t you post some pics ?

Dennis
 

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Discussion Starter #5
Thanks D. Mid 30's to low 40's is the kind of idea I was looking for.
I know that some Alfisti will buy a car and go nuts trying to make it "perfect".
Not the kind of buyer I would be looking for. It would be a car for someone who doesn't want to pay the $80K premium price for "perfection" that I see out there, but wants a car that can be driven. Not a trailor queen.
It is not a 'flip', but an attempt to bring back a good, straight car, that needs primarily cosmetics and freshening.
So, a car that does not need mechanical work to drive, and looks good inside and out could actually sell for mid $40's ?
 

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Thanks D. Mid 30's to low 40's is the kind of idea I was looking for.
I know that some Alfisti will buy a car and go nuts trying to make it "perfect".
Not the kind of buyer I would be looking for. It would be a car for someone who doesn't want to pay the $80K premium price for "perfection" that I see out there, but wants a car that can be driven. Not a trailor queen.
It is not a 'flip', but an attempt to bring back a good, straight car, that needs primarily cosmetics and freshening.
So, a car that does not need mechanical work to drive, and looks good inside and out could actually sell for mid $40's ?
I said low 40's .. I just peaked at Hagerty's values. These are the numbers they will support when insuring a car and the lower you go in their rating system, the more things get grey and vague. What you are saying sounds like a car between a two and a three. That opens the value up from high twenties to low 40's. That's a WIDE range.... just as much as a MAACO paint job from a proper one. I wouldn't base my decisions on the top of the range.http://www.hagerty.com/valuationtools/HVT/VehicleSearch/Report?vc=1340955
 

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I just argued with Hagerty about their breakdown of models and values. I thought they had it wrong, but haven't looked since I talked to them.

I see values as off 20-30% compared to early this year: Giulia sedans, Duettos, Giuliettas, Berlinas. Not sure about GTVs. I don't know why; Porsches and Ferraris continue to escalate incredibly, so it's not a general trend. Not sure if other marques are affected, or just Alfa? One or two folks I know think the sky (market) is falling soon. I don't know what to think.

Andrew
 

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So, a car that does not need mechanical work to drive, and looks good inside and out could actually sell for mid $40's ?
Has any mention been made of whether this car is a veloce or a normale? If it's a veloce, then yea, a "driver condition" car might touch the mid $40's. But if it's a far more common normale, the mid 30's would be more realistic.

Another factor that hasn't been mentioned is how the car will be marketed: an ad in the Portland Maine Craigslist running in January? an ebay listing with lots of photos and a good write-up? Bonhams Monterey auction? Sure the marketing cost & effort increase as you move up the ladder, but so will the selling price.

My sense is that you can't get your money out of restoring a car worth < ~ $100K. A gallon of automotive paint costs the same whether it goes on a $30K Giulia spider, or a $3M V12 Ferrari. The return on re-painting is about the same % for both cars, but obviously on the Ferrari that translates into a much larger number, and one that will exceed the restoration expense.
 

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I just argued with Hagerty about their breakdown of models and values. I thought they had it wrong, but haven't looked since I talked to them.

I see values as off 20-30% compared to early this year: Giulia sedans, Duettos, Giuliettas, Berlinas. Not sure about GTVs. I don't know why; Porsches and Ferraris continue to escalate incredibly, so it's not a general trend. Not sure if other marques are affected, or just Alfa? One or two folks I know think the sky (market) is falling soon. I don't know what to think.

Andrew
There are exceptions, but it is what they will insure a car for. Some antiques can be insured for more than an appraised value because they are so difficult to replace. That caveat doesn't seem to hold water in automobiles.. at least with Hagerty.
 

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Hagerty said my 60 Veloce Spider had a top value of $45K. I said $85K was more like it, and after I provided documentation from SCM guide and other stuff, they agreed to insure it for that much.

Andrew
 

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Regardless of guidelines or otherwise, an insurance policy is a contract, and whatever you can negotiate and pay for, and they agree as to value and coverage, that's what you're insured for. Hagerty said even if I didn't provide documentation, I could talk to Underwriting and come to some agreement. But the documentation, sent through customer service, was sufficient. A year ago I'd have said $100K for my car, but I don't think so now.

Andrew
 

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Discussion Starter #13
So I'm safe to assume half of what you guys feel your cars are worth is what I can easily get for this as a driver?
I know, I know, many variables.
But bottom line, a good looking, good running car, that does not need work to be a driver, should be worth $35K to $45K.
 

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So I'm safe to assume half of what you guys feel your cars are worth is what I can easily get for this as a driver?
I know, I know, many variables.
But bottom line, a good looking, good running car, that does not need work to be a driver, should be worth $35K to $45K.
...and then there is the buyer... and the location. Maine isn't a hot bed and if the car didn't have "black plates" from CA ... well you know how that effects goofy buyers.
 

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Discussion Starter #15
Very few of my customers are from Maine.
Black plate or no, it still will be a good car.
 

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Fantasy Junction sells probably more Alfas, and Giuliettas, than anyone. They just sold an Abnormale Sprint that was there for many months, listed at $72,500. Now they have a late Normale Spider, just before the transition to Giulia, listed at I think $59,500. It's not a show car, but looks like a pretty nice one. It seemed a year ago that every Giulietta was going to be a $100K car, but the trend is I think really down right now.

Andrew
 

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1957, 1958 early series 1 750 F Veloce's that are correct and matching numbers are selling for 162,000 EUR/ $200K USD currently. Incredibly rare car.
 

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Okay, either prices have gone through the roof in the past two years, or I REALLY ripped off the guy I bought my nice driver '63 Abnormale from.
 

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Discussion Starter #20
If Bill Gilham restored it, it must be nice.
I would be okay with getting my customer $40K. We would both do okay
 
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