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Hi George:

We're thinking about driving the GTV to the Seattle convention, but I don't know if that will work out yet. Have you ever driven a lowered Alfa onto a ferry? One of my concerns if we come up is whether or not we can get to the places we want to visit, some of which require boat trips. The ferry ramps look challenging for my car and the people who load those ships aren't real patient.

GW
 

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Ferrys/clearance/ehausts

Hi Gary

By driving at an angle, slowly, across the ramps, one can generally avoid the transition from ramp to deck. Sometimes you get the passengers to exit the car early. The ferry people will look out for you, and will help.

If you are worried, you can go from South Seattle down to Olympia to get to the Olympic Pensulia, probably just as fast as taking a ferry over, considering wait/sailing times. And you could come to Anacortes to visit, and Susan and I would take you over on our boat.

Captain George
 

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More fuel for the fire!!!

The resistance of the gears to the 80/90 weight gear oil is greater than the gain of removing 10 ounces of metal close to the axis of 30 plus pounds of gears. Think about it!

Would you believe I install oil scrapers in my racing transmissions?
 

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George Willet said:
The resistance of the gears to the 80/90 weight gear oil is greater than the gain of removing 10 ounces of metal close to the axis of 30 plus pounds of gears. Think about it!
But the resistance of the oil remains the same, if the inertia is reduced the oil (and the syncros) will slow the gears down faster ;)
 

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gear lightening

I lightened my first gearset in a 68 gtv about 20 years ago and noticed instant improvement in selection action . This was a good thing because we were running loose gravel rallies at the time and extreme sideways was the order of the day. Anything that worked a little better eased the workload at the drivers seat. I also noted that synchro replacements were not needed as often.
Since then, many sets in both 105(115) and transaxle boxes have been done on request, with the same sort of feedback on results. Its hard to quantify a specific improvement, but you can feel it and see it on condition of internals at rebuilds. Many novice trackday drivers ( who probably cant heel/toe on down changes properly) really notice the improvement with lightening-: this is after they have already had stock rebuilds, so they know what a good stock box acts like. I have also had back to back, in car comparisons between 105 close-ratio sets that I make , some full weight and others lightened on request. The better `feel` of the lighter sets is always noted.
Anyway ,when my daughter`s car is due for synchros soon I will be lightening its gears , if only so I don`t have to visit the synchros again for many years, and thats a benefit even on just a daily driver.
Regards, VS.
 

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All, the Porsche guys can buy syncro hubs (dog rings) separately for about $120, see Automotion web site
http://www.automotion.com/ProductPage.aspx?pid=106046&name=Synchro+Hubs&type=20

and they look very mush like our Alfa hubs because the Porsche trans syncronizing system is similar to Alfas or visa versa. Their hubs however are, I'm told, a different size but maybe there source manufacturer is Alfa's source. Someone with contacts in Europe might persue this.

Regards

Ken Geiger
Toronto
 

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yo vince !

good to hear ya online. I'm interested in how much this process would cost for a TS gearbox. I'm thinking of having it done whilst rebuilding the box.

cheers

joe
 

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George Willet said:
Gary, thanks for your viewpoint, and when can you send your beautiful car for my lawn ornament? (It would be there only when I wasn't driving it). Or are you saving it for your new place on the Olympic Pensuila?

GW (also)
George, I'm sorry but this is where I have to step in and tell you to back off :D I asked for the lawn ornament WAY before you :D :eek:
 

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Univrsible, not to dilute this thechnical thread, but after all the rains you folks have had in the Bay Area, i would bet the the lawns there were green for a while, but now are sluiced down the storm drains. I at least have a lawn!

Iwas in the Bay area a coulpe of weeks ago, staying at a hotel on Powell near Market Street, and saw the benefit of the rain, ......the street people were clean!! (Drum Roll!!)

While I was there, I had not seen so many hands out, since my last ex-wives convention! (Drum Roll!!)

So put in some terrancing like the rice farmers do, and we can have a PiXXing contest to see who gets "the lawn ornament".

Say, does Gary have any say in this?

Yours for rust free Alfas,
 

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I say the apple doesn't fall far from the tree. Universible is my son.

But he doesn't need my car. He has two, count'em two, Alfas, at least until someone makes a reasonable offer on his exceptionally nice, quick Milano Verde, viewed at:

http://greend.com/milano_for_sale.htmwww.greend.com/ .

Hint, hint, guys. The Milano is a terrific car and offered at a very reasonable price.

GW
 

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vsharp said:
I lightened my first gearset in a 68 gtv about 20 years ago and noticed instant improvement in selection action . This was a good thing because we were running loose gravel rallies at the time and extreme sideways was the order of the day. Anything that worked a little better eased the workload at the drivers seat. I also noted that synchro replacements were not needed as often.
Since then, many sets in both 105(115) and transaxle boxes have been done on request, with the same sort of feedback on results. Its hard to quantify a specific improvement, but you can feel it and see it on condition of internals at rebuilds. Many novice trackday drivers ( who probably cant heel/toe on down changes properly) really notice the improvement with lightening-: this is after they have already had stock rebuilds, so they know what a good stock box acts like. I have also had back to back, in car comparisons between 105 close-ratio sets that I make , some full weight and others lightened on request. The better `feel` of the lighter sets is always noted.
Anyway ,when my daughter`s car is due for synchros soon I will be lightening its gears , if only so I don`t have to visit the synchros again for many years, and thats a benefit even on just a daily driver.
Regards, VS.
Hi, was thinking about this issue. I see from the pictures that people seem to only lighten the gears on the Main shaft itself ie gears 1 to 5 but what about the corresponding gears on the layshaft side? Any effect or advantage in lightening those? Can it even be done? I have not visited the inside of a gear box yet but I imagaine it will be soon.

Thanks
Dean
 

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gear lightening

Dean T said:
Hi, was thinking about this issue. I see from the pictures that people seem to only lighten the gears on the Main shaft itself ie gears 1 to 5 but what about the corresponding gears on the layshaft side? Any effect or advantage in lightening those? Can it even be done? I have not visited the inside of a gear box yet but I imagaine it will be soon.

Thanks
Dean
Hi Dean, yes lightening on the layshaft (or cluster) is worthwhile, as all the gears (except reverse) are in constant mesh . That means all gears are connected to each other, and the synchro on any one gear has to accelerate or brake itself plus ALL the others on the main and lay shafts and the clutch disc as well. In fact, I begin any lightening at 5th on the layshaft, as this is the largest radius , highest speed weight that can be removed. This is easy to see. If you have a gear case apart, with all the gears still in place , grab hold of 1st or 2nd on the main (the big ones with synchros) and try to spin them up quickly. You will see how the gear ratios make 5th on the layshaft like a high speed flywheel. You will also appreciate just how much work a poor old synchro has to do. If this basic check is done on a lightened gear set the difference in effort is very noticeable.
Regards,
VS
 

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lightening holes increase resistance?

Its time for a gearbox rebuild on my GTV. I too am thinking about a lighten gearset. I had a Formula One gear (Jag-now Redbull) sitting on my office desk for awhile. I notice the straight cut gear was cutback quite a bit but without any lightening holes. I was wonder if the holes in the gear would pick up gear oil negating some of the weight advantage of drilling. More importantly, wouldn't the holes on the lower shaft add significate drag to the gear as it drags through thick gearbox oil?



davbert
 

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vsharp said:
Hi Dean, yes lightening on the layshaft (or cluster) is worthwhile, as all the gears (except reverse) are in constant mesh . That means all gears are connected to each other, and the synchro on any one gear has to accelerate or brake itself plus ALL the others on the main and lay shafts and the clutch disc as well. In fact, I begin any lightening at 5th on the layshaft, as this is the largest radius , highest speed weight that can be removed. This is easy to see. If you have a gear case apart, with all the gears still in place , grab hold of 1st or 2nd on the main (the big ones with synchros) and try to spin them up quickly. You will see how the gear ratios make 5th on the layshaft like a high speed flywheel. You will also appreciate just how much work a poor old synchro has to do. If this basic check is done on a lightened gear set the difference in effort is very noticeable.
Regards,
VS
Dear VS,

Thanks for your reply. Was thinking about that as well but hasn't quite figured it out how the synchros actually do the slowing down.... :confused:

In my :confused: I looked at pictures of opened gear boxes and I see both sets of gears lying side by side and then I looked at the discussions so far. the focus is only on the Main shaft side and not the lay shaft side. Thanks to your reply I am now clearer about it and will, when the time comes, get my friend to lightened all the gears. acutally there is no need to wait I'll will just get him to work on my spare box. :D :D

Just one more thing, from your description, I understand that all the gears in the Main and lay Shafts spin together with the shaft at shaft rpm right? ie they are pressed into the shaft for interference fit so that everyone spins with the shaft? I assume this and if so then the poor synchros actually needs to slow not just the mass of the Main shaft gears but the entire Lay shaft gears as well! If this is correct then any lightening should help!

If this is the case, then lightening just the larger of the lay shaft gears would accomplish more than killing myself trying to lighten everysingle one since all the gears acts as one when considering the rotational mass for the synchros to work on. Am I right?? :confused:

so hypothetical, then if I lighten up the biggest of the Mainshaft gears and not the smaller ones. and do the same witht the lay shaft gears ie only the big ones, since the big mates to the small and vice versa, I should achieve the same lightened effect right??

But if the gears do not spin as one with the shaft but instead spins individually then ligtheneing even 1 gear (say the main shaft side alone) becomes significant for that ratio chosen!! :eek:

Which is it? how does it work??

Thanks
Dean
 

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Discussion Starter #38
I was fairly clueless about gearboxes till I found it. The animations really help to understand.
But I am still split on whether lightening has a significant effect. I'm sure it's "better", because I believe reducing the weight will lessen the synchro's work. But there is a whole lot of spinning mass there. all the shafts, gears, synchros. If lightening the gears reduces the, hmmm, what is the proper term... "rotational inertia"? significantly, this is certainly a useful mod. VS's comment above was the most interesting...
VS, have you really spun a lightened gearbox by hand and compared it to a regular one? If so, that's pretty compelling information!
C
 

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Thanks for the link! :)

This link finally help me understand the principles of how synchros and the gear box actually work! :D

haha, now I feel ready to tackle the box!! :D If I work on the spare box myself I may post my progress here... it will either be a picture of a completed box or a pic full of bits with questions like ... "what is this part??" :p :D

Thanks
Dean
 

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Different folks have different results and therefore different opinions. It's not in a 115 car, but in an Milano-- but is still the same gearset--that I have lightened 1st and 2nd gears. The car is used strictly for autocross, and I couldn't tell a bit of difference. In fact, my synchros lasted about 6 autocrosses and no highway miles.

For comparison purposes, my OEM synchros with unlightened gears lasted 180K highway miles and about 20 autocrosses before I started getting 2nd gear crunch.

I'll put the transaxle out soon and replace the 2nd gear synchro. Doing it myself this time because seems this is a "consumable" for me!
 
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