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Remove the three bolts holding the intermediate shaft at the bearing and motor mount bracket, then slide it out of the way. You don't want to have to align more than one set of splines at a time.
Charles
 

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1991 164L
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Remove the three bolts holding the intermediate shaft at the bearing and motor mount bracket, then slide it out of the way. You don't want to have to align more than one set of splines at a time.
Charles
I swear we must have 164 ESP sometimes. I just wrote Rob the same thing in a PM. Rob adding to my PM the following now: Removing the three 10mm hex head bolts from rear engine mount that hold the IM shaft bearing retainer will allow IM shaft to be moved.

If IM shaft still hooked up to outer axle that is OK if you also remove four bolts holding strut and spring assembly to axle and hub spindle you can move IM and outer axle outward enough to get IM shaft out of the way so you can get tranny input shaft into clutch disc spline.

Good Luck!
 

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Discussion Starter · #123 · (Edited)
Car is back together - started right up! Runs and drives ok, but the clutch chattering. I am guessing it is from the gear oil that was splattered everywhere when the previous trans blew up. I cleaned most everything before reassembly, but there must have been some gunk still in between clutch disk.
Also - there are some slight vibrations transmitted through the car under certain loads - probably due to the fact that I shimmed the shift fork with washers to tighten up the shift feel.
BTW - the intermediate shaft was unbolted and ready to slide back, I just had neglected to do so. Once that was done, my father and I slid it on in about 10 minutes.

I also have some motor mount issues (also contributing to vibrations I assume)- the RF motor mount has been replaced by one of my design by modifying the stock broken mount, and it is not satisfactory. Are there alternatives to the SAAB mount and the stock alfa mount? i.e. a rear mount?
 

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Rob,
The stock mounts work real well when in good shape. If you decide the fix the clutch, you don't have to remove the transaxle all the way. Good luck
David
 

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Discussion Starter · #125 · (Edited)
Rob,
The stock mounts work real well when in good shape. If you decide the fix the clutch, you don't have to remove the transaxle all the way. Good luck
David
I'm hoping the chattering will go away with driving. The oils/crud that may have seeped in there should burn off (correct me if I'm wrong).
 

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At the very least, you probably should have replaced the disc and machined the flywheel while it was apart. Unfortunately oil will probably not just go away from heat and friction. Did you just spray the disc/flywheel/pressure plate/bellhousing area with brake cleaner or something? That may not be enough for a clutch disc unfortunately, since friction material can soak up oils pretty good. Lets hope it stops slipping with use though, I'd hate for you to have to go back in there.
Charles
 

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Hmmmm. Oil-soaked friction material on the clutch disc? I've heard of folks recovering brake pads/shoes by soaking them in gasoline, putting them on the (concrete) driveway, and setting fire to them, but I doubt you'd want to do that with the friction disc in place.....

Sounds inauspicious to me. Maybe you could disengage the clutch by rotating the fork, then trickle some perchlor or other degreasing agent down over the friction disc for a little while? If you try this, it might work better if the disc is hot from slipping a little. You might be able to recover the disc, but probably not without soaking it in solvent for quite a while. And the $100 cost of a replacement disc is probably well worth it.

I understand your misery and constraints. I remember well being a graduate student for an extended period of time.

Michael
 

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Discussion Starter · #129 ·
Took the words right out of my mouth. You put the old friction disc back in there? With how many miles on it?
The clutch has less than 10K miles on it - it would be extremely disheartening to have to replace such a new clutch (and I'm talking entire assembly).
 

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Discussion Starter · #130 ·
drove the car this morning - when it was cold, the clutch slippage was practically gone. As the car warmed up and reached operating temp, it seemed to get worse. At its worst today was still better than yesterday.
Any problems with using brakleen or similar through the access hole at the top of the trans?
 

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Any problems with using brakleen or similar through the access hole at the top of the trans?
I'd be worried about washing the grease off the bearing retainer. At this point, it sounds like it may be "burning off" enough to be acceptable for regular use. All things considered, I think I'd be inclined to leave it alone - it seems unlikely to me that it would now reverse course and get worse.
 

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friction disc is replaceable separately

The clutch has less than 10K miles on it - it would be extremely disheartening to have to replace such a new clutch (and I'm talking entire assembly).
and it generally costs only about $100. You might find one for less somewhere. Or a good shop can replace the friction material from your last one if you didn't trash it yet. I used to have friction material replaced on the clutches of a small crawler tractor at a shop in Oakland, CA.

Michael
 

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Discussion Starter · #133 · (Edited)
I'd be worried about washing the grease off the bearing retainer. At this point, it sounds like it may be "burning off" enough to be acceptable for regular use. All things considered, I think I'd be inclined to leave it alone - it seems unlikely to me that it would now reverse course and get worse.
I did use some brakleen while the car was running (with my sister engaging/disengaging the clutch) to wash some of the grease off.
I went for a test drive, and there was absolutely NO slipping whatsoever. It sounds like a combination of a dirty friction disk as well as some grime down on contact surfaces. But, that said, I'm going to keep driving the car as it seems to improve with driving and heat cycles. I'll keep those parties interested updated :rolleyes:


BTW, I ended up getting the gearbox from Dean Russell at Trail Auto. He said the gearbox was from the Fiat R/D department - there are some cool stampings visible on the casing.
 

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Think about it this way and see if it makes sense: what will happen if you saturate the disc with brakleen/etc? It gets wet and the oil dissolves into the liquid. Then start the car and let the liquid 'spin out' like in a washing machine spin cycle. The oil goes to the inside of the bell housing with the liquid. The brake cleaner evaporates. If you dribble brake cleaner onto a running clutch, you won't get much (if any) down beyond the outermost edge of the disc. You want to cover the full pad, so you'd best dribble cleaner onto the disc while it's static but not clamped by the pressure plate. Then after putting enough solvent onto the friction material and before it evaporates, start spinning the clutch assembly. There are wear indicator channels on it, so it probably doesn't really matter whether you engage/disengage the clutch while trying to spin the solvent out of the clutch. Just my take on things from the little I know.

Michael
 

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Discussion Starter · #135 ·
Think about it this way and see if it makes sense: what will happen if you saturate the disc with brakleen/etc? It gets wet and the oil dissolves into the liquid. Then start the car and let the liquid 'spin out' like in a washing machine spin cycle. The oil goes to the inside of the bell housing with the liquid. The brake cleaner evaporates. If you dribble brake cleaner onto a running clutch, you won't get much (if any) down beyond the outermost edge of the disc. You want to cover the full pad, so you'd best dribble cleaner onto the disc while it's static but not clamped by the pressure plate. Then after putting enough solvent onto the friction material and before it evaporates, start spinning the clutch assembly. There are wear indicator channels on it, so it probably doesn't really matter whether you engage/disengage the clutch while trying to spin the solvent out of the clutch. Just my take on things from the little I know.

Michael
I have since done what you've described here (I had run out of cleaner previously).
As for the wear channels - wouldn't you want to get the cleaner on all surfaces of the disk? I see how you could get most of the grime out with the solvent through the capillary action of the fluid, but direct contact would be best, no?

Best way to leave clutch disengaged? Prop open clutch fork?
 

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I mentioned the wear channels (wear indicator grooves, or whatever) only as places for the liquid to exit the core area of the clutch disc. You want to cover the friction disc with liquid. The liquid penetrates the porous material and dissolves oils from it. Maybe not completely, but this is what it does in general. The friction disc is attached to the transmission input shaft, so it rotates with the transmission.

If you want to lock the clutch pedal in place with a broomstick or use a tool to move the clutch fork actuator and hold it open (with the engine off) then you could put the transmission in gear and have a buddy rotate the clutch plate by rotating a road wheel while you dribble solvent on the disc. You won't be able to spin it fast enough by hand to prevent the liquid penetrating across the whole friction material surface. Then when you're done drooling solvent on it, back off and one of you then turns on the engine to spin the remaining solvent out to the bell housing. If you let it evaporate on the disc, then the oil stays there. If you sling it off, then the dissolved oil goes with it. If you take the bottom cover (flywheel cover) off the bell housing, you might be able to spritz solvent into the appropriate area better. I don't know just now. I do know that this cover if missing allows dirt and grit into the area between flywheel and disc. You don't want to leave it off as happened on our family's '93L. The gritty paste formed by a low level oil leak wore the flywheel side of the disc materlal in short order, leaving the other side little worn. New disc required, discovered when R&Ring tranny input bearing a year ago.

Just suggestions for a marginal treatment of a difficult situation. The Proper Thing To Do is to replace the disc. But, it just might not be absolutely necessary. And, by the way, this won't remove "grit," but only soluble oils on the disc material. Grit is another issue entirely. When slinging the solvent off the disc, you want it to be rotating. Because of the wear channels, the solvent should still be able to migrate out with the clutch engaged. It shouldn't be necessary to disengage the clutch. Neutral should work just fine, as the disc will be spinning.

Michael
 

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Discussion Starter · #137 ·
I mentioned the wear channels (wear indicator grooves, or whatever) only as places for the liquid to exit the core area of the clutch disc. You want to cover the friction disc with liquid. The liquid penetrates the porous material and dissolves oils from it. Maybe not completely, but this is what it does in general. The friction disc is attached to the transmission input shaft, so it rotates with the transmission.

If you want to lock the clutch pedal in place with a broomstick or use a tool to move the clutch fork actuator and hold it open (with the engine off) then you could put the transmission in gear and have a buddy rotate the clutch plate by rotating a road wheel while you dribble solvent on the disc. You won't be able to spin it fast enough by hand to prevent the liquid penetrating across the whole friction material surface. Then when you're done drooling solvent on it, back off and one of you then turns on the engine to spin the remaining solvent out to the bell housing. If you let it evaporate on the disc, then the oil stays there. If you sling it off, then the dissolved oil goes with it. If you take the bottom cover (flywheel cover) off the bell housing, you might be able to spritz solvent into the appropriate area better. I don't know just now. I do know that this cover if missing allows dirt and grit into the area between flywheel and disc. You don't want to leave it off as happened on our family's '93L. The gritty paste formed by a low level oil leak wore the flywheel side of the disc materlal in short order, leaving the other side little worn. New disc required, discovered when R&Ring tranny input bearing a year ago.

Just suggestions for a marginal treatment of a difficult situation. The Proper Thing To Do is to replace the disc. But, it just might not be absolutely necessary. And, by the way, this won't remove "grit," but only soluble oils on the disc material. Grit is another issue entirely. When slinging the solvent off the disc, you want it to be rotating. Because of the wear channels, the solvent should still be able to migrate out with the clutch engaged. It shouldn't be necessary to disengage the clutch. Neutral should work just fine, as the disc will be spinning.

Michael

Michael -

Thanks again for the info and suggestions. Did what you suggested - btw I have flywheel inspection plate in place.

Clutch is not slipping at all, under any load.

Thanks also to those who helped me here. As always, this forum is such a great resource with great people and great information.
 

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Currently facing a second diff failure (1995 24v manual 3,0). Sometimes audible clonking when driving and found quite a bit of play in diff gears - about 1.5"/35mm of combined play (rotate one wheel while other stationary) at rim of brake disk. Not sure how many degrees that is but significant.
The cause, I believe, is the synthetic gear oil put in when had clutch change about 5,000 miles ago. This is the car's second gearbox - first diff blew a few thousand miles after adding, you guessed it, synthetic gear oil. Was always planning to drop in a Quaife limited slip diff, though hadn't planned to be doing it just yet as not cheap. In meantime will be dumping the synthetic oil and putting EP80w/90 GL4 mineral oil back in.
Anyone else experienced similar?
 

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When the time eventually comes to finally rebuild the 91S engine, I will definitely have the diff checked for any pin migration, etc.
 

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Synthetic oil matching or exceeding the OEM fill won't be the cause. These diffs are known for breaking the differential gear set pin.

I think the specification for the manual transmission is an ATF.
 
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