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Discussion Starter #1
Does anyone have the paint code for the red (rosso Corse?) used on the Series 2 Fulvia Zagato? It is not Rosso San siro or Rosso Palermo. According to documents I have it is Lesonal Red No 167 but my paint supplier does not have a formulation for this, he prefers Max Meyer. I have a Glasurit paint chip book with chips & Glasurit formulations for Lancias from 1966 to 1973 but this includes Rosso Corse not the Lesonal red. The car has been repainted in the early nineties so is no longer Red as supplied by Zagato which leads me to think it is straight Lancia Rosso Corse, but even then it gets tricky as the S2 Coupe was painted in Rosso Corsa with a Lechler formulation 213-851/F. Can anyone confirm that Zagato used different colour formulations to Lancia themselves? I suspect that they did probably as the supplier to Zagato in Milano was different to that of Lancia in Torino hence Lesonal paints at Zagato and Lechler/Glasurit at Lancia
 

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AtZ: I also answered on the Lancisti forum, where I think someone mistook your car for a Beta. I think you're right to be wary. I think it's entirely likely that the S2 Zagato "rosso" is not the same as the S2 coupe "rosso corsa".

Unfortunately, I've checked all my reference sources, and I have no answer for an equivalent Max Meyer code for Lesinal 167.
 

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FYI: The Glasurit web page lists Lancia Color Code 167 as BORDEAUX MET for 1986-1993.

"Lesinal" is probably "Lesonal." The company still exists (see here). You may want to contact them to see if they have any information.
 

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Discussion Starter #4
Thanks everyone, the Lancisti forum did indeed point to Beta codes which are not the same. The Lesonal website seems not to work, so my current plan is to go over to the paint supplier tommorow with what I have which is the Lesonal No, the Glasurit chips and formulations and see what we can matchup. As I am spraying a bonnet I will get a rattle can first and see how it compares. If anyone is interested I am more than happy to share the Glasurit codes, names and formulations, it runs from '66 to '73.
 

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I have no problems accessing the Lesonal web site (as soon as you select a country, a new browser window pops up, which may be suppressed by your browser or anti-virus software).

Contact information for Lesonal Akzo Nobel Car Refinishes North America from their web site:

Our North American Headquarters:
Akzo Nobel Coatings Inc.
5555 Spalding Drive
Norcross, GA 30092
Tel: (770) 662-8464
Fax: (770) 662-5936

Our Solutions Center (for all Paint and Technical questions):
1-800-618-1010

If you need contacts for another country, let me know.
 

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FYI: The Glasurit web page lists Lancia Color Code 167 as BORDEAUX MET for 1986-1993.
The Zagato color code is Lesonal 167--this is NOT the same as Lancia color code 167. The Lesonal web site is probably your best bet, but use the old Lesonal color code, not the Lancia color code.
 

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So what red do I have??

I Have recently bought a '67 fulvia Z. Some of you may know the car, it was purchased new by ALC member Gary Byrd, and then owned by Fred Armbrewster (in Seattle). I was told Gary didn't like the original red, and had it painted before he took possession. There are definitely two reds on the car, the first is a lighter shade than the second, which looks like ar-519(zagato red, 1972)The sticker for the original color is missing in the glove box, But I did get a good look at the color chart for alfas posted elsewhere on this site. It is lighter than ar-519. But perhaps a bit darker than ar-539. If ar 519 is the same as the rosso listed in 67(??) , then my car is San siro or Palermo red I suppose. But I haven't a clue what those colors look like. Can anyone enlighten me? And has anyone translated into a modern paint code from one of the US paint manufacturers? Thanks in advance for your knowledge and time. I must say , I'm having the time of my life playing with my new toy. (And first Zagato)

Don Boyd
 

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Don,

First, congratulations on your new Fulvia Sport!

Second, I should be able to help with the color. Rosso San Siro (Glasurit LAN 212) is a tomato red, with a lot of orange, while Rosso Palermo (Glasurit LAN 209) is a dark red, somewhat darker than Rosso Corsa. In other words, if the original color is a lighter red, it's probably the Rosso San Siro. But I have a Glasurit swatch book with both colors, and I can send you a color scan (with a standard color correction target) if you PM me with your contact info.
 

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Discussion Starter #9
I had a similar problem, my findings were these; I got a stock of Rosso Corse which in the tin looked spot on red wise for my car, however when sprayed in ended up slightly lighter but this is only noticeable where the two paints blend out. As far as I know Rosso San Siro is really quite orange compared to Palermo or Corse (used on the racing Fulvia Sports in the late sixties a good representation is the car for sale at the Coys sale in Padova this weekend) Rosso Palermo is a darker red very like the Alfa Romeo Zagato red. Any pictures?
 

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Continueing with color.

Well, I have to revise a bit. The lighter red might have been just a thin first coat. I took off some trim in the interior, and a darker red emerged. It's darker than the red on my 93 ducati faring hanging on the wall,(It was handy).
I'm new to the list, so I haven't learned how to post pics yet. I'll go learn. I'm sure there is directions somewhere here....
As far as rosso corse, was that lesonal 167? Inthe back of the "Le Zagato", there are four reds listed, one of them "rosso lesonal 167" Same as rosso corsa? Others are San Siro lesonal 10259 z, Palermo lesonal 252,and Salmone with no code,but listed as lesonal.
In my book by Stella/Vettore about the comp Sports, he said "San Siro red, which would become the competizione's standard color ". That was for chassis #1380. Mine is #1446 in the same series, so we can at least say San Siro was in use by then. Mine of course is NOT a comp model. Don't I wish! And although there are four reds listed in the book for Sports, I wonder if all four would have been in use in '67? I doubt it. Hummm.
 

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Discussion Starter #12
Never forget that Zagato would almost certainly been less strict with codes and paint compounds than the Lancia factory itself. Of the choice you give it will either be Rosso Lesonal 167 or Palermo lesonal 252 I would think. Paint under trim is only a guide to how the car was as it has not been subjected to ageing so do not be surprised if even with the correct code you do not get a perfect match.
 

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more on red

Well, I called Akzo nobel, and guess what? They claim to know what code 167 and 252 go with. The VERY nice and helpful lady said that they had modern matches for both colors. For the list's information, rosso 167 corresponds to their color fan #"302 E3" She said it's a good match with no offsets. rosso Palermo code 252 goes to "426 B3" she said this color was listed as brown, but that it's dark , so that it still could be red to the eye. Also a good match. Now I have to get to a distributor and talk them into a color sample. Maybe not so easy.
Love the pics, ATZagato. Those cars look great without bumbers.Have you ever run into a set of the Plexiglas (perspex?) covers for a first series? If they aren't available, I'm thinking of repoping them. If I understand the process , here is a pic of my car in as found condition.
 

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Don,

AFAIK, the plexiglas (acrylic, if you prefer) headlight covers were never standard, and they don't show up in the Omicron catalogue. You may have to make your own.
 

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headlght covers

Your right. I've come across two sets I can borrow to make moulds, but it's pointless if someones already done it. I have Mike Kristicks originals now, so when I dupli them they will be available through him. Guess I'm going to learn how to form plex.

Don
 

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Discussion Starter #16
If you are remaking the covers you need to have the correct headlamp surrounds, as a Series 1 car yours should be bright, not painted and with a recess all the way around to sit the covers into so you should be fine.. If you are remaking them you probably want to make a male pattern to heat and mould the plexiglass over.
 

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Important lesson: always check the sources. I just re-checked the Weernink Fulvia and Flavia Collector's Guide, and there's a B&W photo of an early Fulvia Sport with a caption that says that plexiglas headlight covers could be ordered 'for later fitment' (i.e., personal or dealer, not factory, installation).
 

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I have both early and late surrounds. Just not the USA 4 headlamp version. I was thinking of doing a version for each. I think it was in stella's book where one of the interviews said that the covers were left off for "homoligation and cost purposes", but the car was definitely designed to have them on. Spada's '65 drawing(pg 14-15 Le Zagato) show the car with them. Elio's prototype didn't have them, probably they weren't ready by then, but by the time of the car debut in the US, the pic of the car being rolled off the boat shows it has them. In my opinion it just doesn't look right otherwise. Like a Junior Z without it's spectacles. wrong. But what do I know?!
As far as moulds go , I've done professional molding before, but not ever with an irreplaceable item of plastic that I'm not sure how it would react with some traditional short run mold materials. (like silicone and bondo. I'm worried about the catalysts.) I'm thinking of going to plaster. Once I get a male mold, I may just farm it out.
 

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Back to zagato reds

Well, I hit a dead end with Akzo Nobel NA. The lady spent some time with me, and I learned they cannot correctly translate code 252. They have no record for Palermo red. 252 comes up as a tan. She went to the color book and that was that. Just for info, though, code 167 rosso does work. However, it is a metallic red. Rosso Palermo must be what I have. But I would not remotely describe it as brownish. I think I need to have this color scanned. I did come up with a red that is very close to the red I found under the interior trim in the car. And, you can all see it. Reach in to your pocket and pick out your Swiss army knife. If it's a victornox, your looking at the color. I don't know about Wenger. Who would want one anyway? :) I got out about 5 knives, and except for the one I've had for 33 yrs, they are all the same color. Depending on the light, it is a fair match. I wrote to Ed outside the list, and he says Palermo.Does the list agree? I put in a call to the local Gasuit dealer, and they couldn't come up with a listing for lan 209, which is what the gasurit chip that Ed sent me says is palermo red. They're going to call the color library tomorrow. Hold your breath. Does anyone already have this info? The local dealer can only do the 55(50?) series paint , which isn't original. The 22 series is one step , no clear coat. Well, I'll fight that battle later.
 

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The Glasurit web site does show Lancia 209 as Palermo Red for 1966-1969, but has no formula for it.

You can check yourself by clicking on the "Color" tab, select "COLOR ONLINE", then "Search for a Formula" (on the right side of the screen), then enter "209" in the "Code" field and select "Lancia" from the "Manufacturer" list (which may trigger a screen refersh), followed by clicking on the "Start Search" button.

It may be that the original paint formula can not be supplied because it is too toxic for today's standards.
 
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