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Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
Dear all,

I am completely overhauling the brakes on my 102 spider. For that, I need to source the thin metal plates that go on the outside of the brake drum and that avoid that the wheels come in direct contact with the brake drums. In the parts book they are described as 'DISC for brake drums' with part number 1356.53.122. I also need gaskets that sit in between the wheel hubs and the brake plate. They are called in the parts book 'GASKET for wheel-hub oil-seal disc'. Does anyone know a source for these parts?

BR Pieter
 

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Discussion Starter #2
.....continuing my post: In case I need to make them, does anyone know the material and thickness of the 'GASKET for wheel-hub oil-seal disc'?
 

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Pieter,

There are thin, steel discs riveted to the outer face of the brake drums. I have never seen these removed from the drums. If yours have been removed, there would be visible holes where the rivets were drilled out. Is that what you have?

I will need to study the manuals when I return home next week, but I do not recall a “gasket” between the wheel hubs and brake plate. Possibly an Italian-English translation problem?
 

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Discussion Starter #4
Hi Don,
My mistake! I had sent the drums and brake shoes for overhauling to the workshop. I actually wrote the post the minute I went to the shop to pick them up. I forgot that the steel discs were (and still are) fixed to the drums. So, one problem solved. Now I only need the gasket between brake plate and hub.
Gr., Pieter
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Hmmm

You are missing the rivets that attach the friction material to the aluminum brake shoe web. This suggests that your shoe overhauler has glued on the friction material rather than riveted.

This is the wrong way to do things. There are several reasons.

I acknowledge that glued-on friction pieces is the modern, and common method. However, this is usually done onto steel backing webs, and only rarely are these rebuilt anymore. When a steel shoe is rebuilt, it is tough enough to withstand the methods to remove the old friction material.

Your aluminum Shoes will suffer if they ever need to be re-lined again. Whether the removal process is heat, chemical, or abrasion, the aluminum could be destroyed.

Meanwhile, glue attachment can result in moisture being trapped between the aluminum shoe and the modern friction compound, which probably has steel embedded in it, leading to various types of corrosion, mostly to the aluminum.

None of this matters much if a car is intended to spend the rest of its days sitting in a museum. I’ve got over 11,000 miles on my restoration, much of which is up and down exhilaration mountain roads.
 

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You can fabricate the paper gasket separating the “moisture exclusion” plate. This is not a critical seal. Use a thick paper gasket material and make them. Not hard.
 

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Discussion Starter #7 (Edited)
I have two refurbished pairs of brake shoes for the front to which the friction material has been riveted. Unfortunately, these are shoes for the newer type of front brakes on the 2 liter 102’s that I bought wrong. I will post them for sale here and on eBay soon.
The linings of the brakes that I removed from my car were partially glued and partially riveted. The brakes-specialized workshop is really an old school workshop where you step 40 years back in time in the way it looks (est 1937). The owner mentioned that he’d prefer to use glue instead of riveting. He had no problems removing the old linings. I completely understand your reasoning, and likely would have discussed it with the guy if I had known before. I simply relied on his expertise and he did a fantastic job.
 

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Removing riveted shoes does not harm the web. “Partially glued” may be a description of the lining having sort of self-bonded over a half-century.

Most brake shops avoid riveting because it takes longer, and there is a significant risk of breaking the new lining material, at which point a reputable shop would be out the cost of the replacement lining, eliminating any profit.

Oh well.
 

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Discussion Starter #9
I am ready to re-assemble the brakes on my car. Looking at the picture of the front hub assembly in the AR 2000 parts book, there seems to be a spacer ring between the oil seal and the inner bearing of the front hub (part 102.00.21.401.00). These spacer rings were not on my car when I took off and disassembled the hubs. Does anyone know a source for such rings? Does anyone know the inner (axle diameter, I guess) and outer dimensions and shape of these rings?
BR Pieter
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These spacers are not between the inner bearing and the seal. They are spacers between the inner bearing and the inner face of the axle. I would be very surprised if your car was missing them, as (at the best) it would result in your brake drum being positioned to far inward, probably interfering with the brake backing plate and fouling the brake shoes in some way.
 

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Discussion Starter #12
Hi Don, I get your point. I cannot really answer your question. There were no spacing problems with the drums, that is for sure.
Gr., Pieter
 

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Pieter, can you please try to change the title of the thread?

"Brake discs for 10204...." sounds completely wrong for (a) the topic has nothing to do with brakes at all, and (b) 102 cars that didn't have disc brakes. Furthermore, I tend to believe that search engines don't know the difference between "brake discs" and "disc brakes", which may create further confusion.

A title like "Grease seals for 1900 and 102 front wheel bearings" may be a better suited to the subject matter, which I think is quite interesting and should be properly documented -- hopefully with pictures, etc.

Below are pages from the 1900 parts catalog that show that these seals have been used on ye front suspension of 1900 cars as well (item #16).

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1634462
 

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Discussion Starter #14
Pieter, can you please try to change the title of the thread?

"Brake discs for 10204...." sounds completely wrong for (a) the topic has nothing to do with brakes at all, and (b) 102 cars that didn't have disc brakes. Furthermore, I tend to believe that search engines don't know the difference between "brake discs" and "disc brakes", which may create further confusion.

A title like "Grease seals for 1900 and 102 front wheel bearings" may be a better suited to the subject matter, which I think is quite interesting and should be properly documented -- hopefully with pictures, etc.

Below are pages from the 1900 parts catalog that show that these seals have been used on ye front suspension of 1900 cars as well (item #16).

View attachment 1634406 View attachment 1634407
Hi Ruedi.....the original post was about the discs on the drum brakes.Hence the term ‘brake discs’. An innocent wordplay to attract attention.

Then again, if this is of serious interest, and it may screw up searching the AlfaBB, I happily change it.

Gr., Pieter

PS Thanks for the technical input!
 

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Pieter,

My previous comment was intended to provoke some thinking.

If your wheel assembly fit together previously, it follows that you already have the spacers. Perhaps they were laid aside during disassembly?

The spacer ring has one inner edge beveled in order to make room for the curved intersection of the axle to inner face. In fact, this was probably the reason for the spacer, so the axle design could have a strongly designed configuration.

These are not very wide spacers. More of a “ring”.
 

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Discussion Starter #16
Hi Don, I realize what you are insinuating.....and frankly, never trust a guy that forgot that the metal discs on the outside of the brake drums were (still) welded on instead of lost during dismantling. Nonetheless, wrt the bearing spacers, this is neither a consequence of the chaos in my head, nor the chaos of my garage. They were not there. Is it possible that a previous owner used bearings with a wider dimension, making the rings obsolete? Or do bearings with certain inner/outer diameter always come in the same standard sizes? I have no clue. I have two spacers/rings ‘in transit’ having purchased them from Franco Veloce in (my native) Holland
Gr., Pieter
 

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Pieter,

Just curious. Have you looked very closely at the axles to see if the rings are still there? It is quite common for them to remain firmly in place, and appear to be a part of the axle.

You can find the part number on your old bearings. There is a global standard of bearing identification. While the Alfa parts manual provides an Alfa part number, the standard bearing number can be found elsewhere.

Having said all that....

I recall you have a very early serial number. There were some variations in seal sizes in the 2000 production, but I don’t recall all of the details. I wonder if there were very early variations in axle-bearing details as well?

How about a picture of your axle?
 

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FWIW, as Pieter pointed out in his first post, the parts catalog refers to the item 1356.53.011 as a gasket or seal, not a spacer. This seems to be consistent across all versions of the 1900, Italian and English versions of 2000 parts catalogs I checked. So, I would guess it was either a paper or fiber gasket with a max. thickness of 1 mm or less that probably easily could be made from stock gasket material (but it would be great to see what the original looked like).
 

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FWIW, as Pieter pointed out in his first post, the parts catalog refers to the item 1356.53.011 as a gasket or seal, not a spacer. This seems to be consistent across all versions of the 1900, Italian and English versions of 2000 parts catalogs I checked. So, I would guess it was either a paper or fiber gasket with a max. thickness of 1 mm or less that probably easily could be made from stock gasket material (but it would be great to see what the original looked like).
The latest discussion is started in Post #9, regarding a 102 part number. This refers to the spacer between the inner bearing hub and the root of the axle.

The 1356 part number was the originating discussion, and relates to the steel disk riveted to the aluminum brake hub. That discussion has been resolved.
 

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Ah, yes -- I missed that fork in the road. Thanks for pointing it out!
 
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