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Discussion Starter #1
95 LS aut, 144K miles

Drivers window has been acting up lately-- sometimes does down no problem other times just a major click from the window controller on pass side under the dash. I noticed that if the climate control was on (ie the fan was on) and I pressed the DOWN switch on the driver door with the window fully closed (ie I was trying to open it) the fan in the climate control would get STRONGER-- judging by the noise it makes-- Weird, huh

So I traced the schematic in the manual, knowing that a 'stuck motor" would draw LOTS of current, slowing down the fan most likely. Seems the window controller returns a current to a branch circuit that does lead to the fan- HAH!

Fiddled with the 30 amp fuse in the fuse box-- fuse still good, but connection in the fusebox was dodgy. The fuse connection being wek was not allowing full current to pass to the motor-- thus it was goosing the fan!

All the while I was thinking 'gotta take the doggone door apart and remove the window motor -- I even asked Graham and Steve about part numbers, thanks very much my friends, --- and was i relieved that its a fuse issue (note to self-- don;t high five too early cause if it comes back it might be a FUSEBOX -OH NO--issue!)

cheers
 

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Thanks for sharing - electrical issues are always my specialty with the Italian cars ;)

It's an interesting one, having the fan go *faster* rather than slower... run me through that again? The extra current draw from the window was creating a temporarily-better connection at the fuse?

Not the first time I've heard of mysteriously-large voltage drops across fuses... I drove many hundreds of miles once in an X1/9 where the left headlight appeared to have blown (I thought the faint glow was from a sidelight bulb in the headlight, but of course the sidelights were separate). So, for several hours, the 10A fuse was somehow losing about five volts! Removing and replacing it later made the light bright again.

In the boot of my 164, I was sure the relay & fuse (for the heated rear window) was of 'normal' appearance when I got the car (and checked the battery). Then, when I went back to it a week or two later, the sight shown below greeted me. Just the fuse metal-part buckled against the side of the relay, no sign of the green plastic bit of the fuse. The fuse socket was, naturally, blackened and crispy. Of course, the fuse hadn't blown - just used a large amount of energy acting as a heater (probably the same energy that the heated rear window used - that still worked fine, of course...)

For that matter I wonder what that second relay is for... the handbook only mentions one relay being there. After all, one relay seems to have a 30A fuse in a holder built into it... I wonder what that's for... I suppose things were different on the day my car was made (my last 164 only had one relay in the boot).

Meanwhile my last 164 flashed the handbrake warning light briefly when I switched from dipped to high beam. The cause was a crispy headlight plug. Ironically I replaced it with the better-quality nylon plug from an X1/9...

-Alex
 

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Discussion Starter #3
Hmmm rethink and no high fives

This AM the drivers window again wont go down. Big click from the controller, fuse is OK, relay was swapped, switch was swapped, and still all I get is a big click. Fiddled around with the fuse box/relay area, no joy.

I would guess that an open motor might act like this. If the motor is worn (driver side window would be most worn) and the brushes were not so great, intermittent contact at the motor, etc, this might be the symptoms--

Anyone who has replaced a window motor-- what were your symptoms? I'll want a motor in hand before I rip the door apart (I hate doing doors--- always get my hands cut up)

thanks
 

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I guess your first step should be to remove door trim (wear gardening leather gloves?) and put 12V direct to motor, to test. I use portable jump-starter pack for this.

-Alex
 

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I have a similar issue in a 1989 164, Australian delivery vehicle. I bought the car with some known electrical issues, then bought a second car as a spares car, then decided it was too good to break, so now I have 2 Alfa 164's to join an already bulging shed of Fiats and Lancias. Anyway, back to the electrical issue. Initially there was a 330 mA current draw from the battery when everything was switched off. Finally traced that to the radio, which was some old style tape player which unplugged from a built-in cradle. After removing the radio, current draw dropped to about 10 mA. Then I had to find out why the interior lights didn't come on when the doors opened, whilst the manual switches would illuminate them. Traced it to a blown fuse in the piggy-back fuse box above the main fuse box. Having got the lights to work, I then found that I could hear the starter motor and alternator through the speakers, but only whilst the dome lights were on through the automatic controller. By pulling the fuse to the electrical aerial, I have eliminated this quirk (but not solved the underlying problem). The other bizarre thing, which is finally back on thread, is when I press the warning lights test button with the ignition switch on, the fan in the air con system speeds up. I've got the car disc with many different wiring diagrams, but none of them seem to resemble exactly what I find in the car, probably because of differences for different markets and different years.
 

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Make sure that the connector at the door jam is tight and clean. I have seen these connectors get dirty/loose and cause funny window issues.
Oh... I'm not sure if the LS has the same connectors as the S or not but they are twist type molex plugs.

Paul
 

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Just thought I'd mention that my 95LS also does the thing where the fan motor speeds up when the window reaches its end of travel. It only does it if the fan is set to something less than full speed. Probably the voltage drop is getting to the fan speed controller, which somehow translates lower voltage to higher fan speed. Anyway, the electrics in my car are fine otherwise, so maybe this fan speed thing is normal.

Jason
San Jose, CA
 

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I'd be surprised if it's actually the window motor. My experience with an assortment of cars is that the window motors almost never fail- it's always something else (most commonly the switch, of course).

Alex- That failure you show of the rear window defrost fuse holder is very common.
 

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Discussion Starter #9
window motor or not?

Thanks Brad

I have swapped switches , swapped relays, and checked fuses.

I believe, in series with the motor but physically mounted within it, there is an 'overcurrent' switch, usually a bimetallic set of contacts that when heated up (due to overcurrent) separate and thus no current to motor windings. That was the deisgn of my old BUick91 Century sled. The window stopped going up and down, and so when I took the motor out, I solder bridged the bimetallic switch so its 'switch' fuinction was no longer.

In looking at the schematic for the windows and talking it through, it seems that it is most likely the same design. There are only 2 wires that control the window (no position sensors,. etc). I will bet you a beer that the motor assembly (including the thermal bimetalic switch) is no good!
Regardles, we will know in a couple of weeks as soon as I find a spare 4 hours to R & R that doggone motor.
 

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Alex- That failure you show of the rear window defrost fuse holder is very common.
Cheers Brad! Funny that it happened in just a week or so after I bought the car.

Now I just wonder why I have two relays there - and why one of them has a fuse built-in.

Goats - I still think you should use a jump-starter pack to test the window motor before you remove it.

-Alex
 

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Window help, please!

These from a thread from 2007:

Make sure that the connector at the door jam is tight and clean. I have seen these connectors get dirty/loose and cause funny window issues.
Oh... I'm not sure if the LS has the same connectors as the S or not but they are twist type molex plugs.
Hi Friends! Especially those of you in the hurricane zone...

Paul
Thanks Brad

I have swapped switches , swapped relays, and checked fuses.

I believe, in series with the motor but physically mounted within it, there is an 'overcurrent' switch, usually a bimetallic set of contacts that when heated up (due to overcurrent) separate and thus no current to motor windings. That was the deisgn of my old BUick91 Century sled. The window stopped going up and down, and so when I took the motor out, I solder bridged the bimetallic switch so its 'switch' fuinction was no longer.

In looking at the schematic for the windows and talking it through, it seems that it is most likely the same design. There are only 2 wires that control the window (no position sensors,. etc). I will bet you a beer that the motor assembly (including the thermal bimetalic switch) is no good!
Regardles, we will know in a couple of weeks as soon as I find a spare 4 hours to R & R that doggone motor.
Hey friends! I hope all of you in the hurricane zone will be OK!!!!

#1)Trying to help Hefe with his window problem and came across this old thread. Here's a data point I need to ask y'all about: I pulled each front window motor fuse, and with the key on, we checked for voltage at the fuse contacts: 11.7 at the positive (yes, the battery needed charging, and it has been charged), and 4V at the ground. Is this normal? Or have mouse turds/pee somehow built a little conductive bridge on the fuse board.

#2) Hefe ONLY has a problem with the switches not working when the temperature is above about 75 degrees. IF there is a bimetal strip in the window motor, could that be causing this problem?

#3) Where is the fuse for the rear windows?

#4) Where can I find the electrical schematic for the window(s) circuit(s).

Veronica
 

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These from a thread from 2007:





Hey friends! I hope all of you in the hurricane zone will be OK!!!!

#1)Trying to help Hefe with his window problem and came across this old thread. Here's a data point I need to ask y'all about: I pulled each front window motor fuse, and with the key on, we checked for voltage at the fuse contacts: 11.7 at the positive (yes, the battery needed charging, and it has been charged), and 4V at the ground. Is this normal? Or have mouse turds/pee somehow built a little conductive bridge on the fuse board.

#2) Hefe ONLY has a problem with the switches not working when the temperature is above about 75 degrees. IF there is a bimetal strip in the window motor, could that be causing this problem?

#3) Where is the fuse for the rear windows?

#4) Where can I find the electrical schematic for the window(s) circuit(s).

Veronica
1. Rear window fuses under mouse sized carpet pad in center console. Rear window lock pout switch rectangle bar switch rear of center console window door lock switch panel.

2. Schematics and much more CarDisc International Ltd. - Alfa Romeo Manuals, Giulietta Manuals, Giulia Manuals, GTV Manuals, Spider Manuals, American Austin & American Bantam 164 DVD
 

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Discussion Starter #13
having 4 volts at ground is not good. That means that the window motor only drops 8 volts. You need to find out why the ground isnt really ground I think
 

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I think I need to "drop" the fuse panel and look at the backside. There is a lot of that funky, gluey, tarry black foam insulation crawling around, and I wonder if things are kind of messed up behind there. OR there is a ground problem somewhere else, of course. Otherwise the car is functioning well, and when it's not hot the window switches work. Except for the rears at the moment. Will investigate under the mouse sized pad. Thanks for the link to the schematics.

V.
 

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Discussion Starter #15
here is what to do. Put the fuse back in, and measure the voltage at the motor (disconnect the motor and use your voltmeter on the connector going to the motor). You need to take the door panel off to do this. Run the switch -- you should see 12VDC. As Steve says, report your results!
 

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Well, it's not like I haven't had that door apart before - I had to replace the outside handle last year. We have to drive 4 hours to Portland today (in one of my cars) so this part of the investigation will have to wait. If we don't have 12 volts to the motor, then what, we back track? And as I said, this only happens when the ambient temp is about 75 or 80 degrees, so we're looking for some sort of intermittent, temperature dependent problem, which made the bi-metal strip thing mentioned above, intriguing.

Will let everyone know what we do and what we find. At least everything that's not X-rated but still related to Alfas...

V
 

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Yesterday afternoon saw that the 30Amp fuse holder for the heated rear window in my 164S had done the same thing - melted down both the fuse itself and fuse holder without burning out the 30 Amp fuse! Had to cut it all out and solder in a new fuse holder with a new fuse. Anyone know what could have caused this to happen?
 

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Corrosion. Fuses work by being the weak link in the conductor. If resistance increases above that presented by the fusible link then that resistance point overheats and can melt instead of the fuse. Once it has all melted the true cause is no longer ascertainable.

Happened to me with trailer hitch wiring. 5 amp fuse kept blowing. Mechanic put a 25 amp fuse in to "correct" this "fault". The corrosion which was causing the current draw to exceed 5 amps then drew nearly 25 amps which melted the wiring harness at that point, right behind the wiring connection socket on the hitch bar which was open to salt spray and not sealed. Nearly burned up the car but I saw the smoke and pulled the fuse asap.

Moral of this story is the fuse only works to protect the wiring if all the current draw flows through the fusible link.
 

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On this window motor issue I suggest the limit switch might be faulty. These motors have an overload "breaker" which resets automatically, probably a bimetallic switch. Reason is ice and snow. If the window freezes you don't want to blow the motor as well.

Another less likely candidate might be a faulty load limiting switch. These are designed to prevent window motors from causing injury should the upward motion of the window meet an obstruction. This is why most modern electric windows also have a semi automatic reset mode to "teach" the window (and sunroof) motors where the fully open and fully closed positions are. Whenever the electrical power to the window switch is interrupted, by disconnecting the main service battery for example, the window limits of range of motion must be reset. Usually by holding the switch down at the upmost and downmost window positions for a set time period.
 

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I'm not sure these 164 windows have load limiting switches. But maybe they do?
 
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