Alfa Romeo Forums banner
201 - 220 of 227 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
308 Posts
I suppose, but is it very different if a manufacturer buys a formula 1 team outright? The Mercedes team is still based in England with specialized engineers and designers, is it not? When Ford introduced the GT40, it was designed by Lola, as I recall.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,374 Posts
Not so much buying a team outright but building a chassis and engine. What does f1 have now as a ‘traditional ‘ manufacturer now
Ferrari Mercedes and Renault. Am I missing any.
But don’t get me wrong I’m not being critical, it’s just the way the world is these days.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
308 Posts
What about when the Cosworth DFV was the predominate engine in F1? Were Lotus and Tyrell not legitimate teams when they won championships? Or Williams with Honda? What about Cooper, when it won as far back as 1959 with a Climax powerplant? In fact, in that era, Rob Walker was able to win numerous races as a privateer with Stirling Moss running year old chassis. This isn’t really new. Indeed, I would suggest that to some extent and certainly with virtually unlimited budgets, the factory teams have destroyed F1.
 

·
Administrator
Joined
·
14,965 Posts
What about when the Cosworth DFV was the predominate engine in F1? Were Lotus and Tyrell not legitimate teams when they won championships? Or Williams with Honda? What about Cooper, when it won as far back as 1959 with a Climax powerplant? In fact, in that era, Rob Walker was able to win numerous races as a privateer with Stirling Moss running year old chassis. This isn’t really new. Indeed, I would suggest that to some extent and certainly with virtually unlimited budgets, the factory teams have destroyed F1.
Your missing at least my point.

Sauber are the entrant and have a naming right sponsor that happens to be Alfa Romeo. Could be DisneyLand

Lotus, Tyrell, Cooper all made their own cars, as do Sauber. Lotus was sponsored by JPS, and many others ... but the car was a Lotus, powered by Ford, etc. The Sauber is 100% Sauber, powered by Ferrari

If Alfa Romeo is really a current F1 team, then so is Mission Winnow

Pete
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,374 Posts
I don't disagree with any of you guys, I'm just throwing around some thoughts. How did we get to a position where a drinks company is a F1 team. Maybe this is no different to Hesketh racing.

This weekend will be interesting because of the new qualifying format. I will try to stay awake but its been pretty hard lately.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
308 Posts
PSk, I hear you. However, Mercedes Benz and their engineers have very little more connection with the Mercedes AMG Petronas F1 chassis than Alfa Romeo does with the Sauber. The Formula 1 team is a completely separate company located in England with their own engineers, many of whom were around when Mercedes bought an interest in Brawn GP. Even the upper echelon management is separate from Mercedes - Toto Wolf was not hired by Mercedes, but by a separate company ( a Formula 1 team ) of which he owns 1/3rd of the shares - the same as Mercedes. That‘s right - Mercedes is not even the majority shareholder, as Ineos also owns 1/3 rd of the shares.

The reality is that Mercedes‘ minority investment in a Formula 1 team is for the purpose of naming rights and advertising, no different than non car manufacturing companies such as Red Bull. It is every bit as much an Ineos, or a Toto Wolf as it is a Mercedes. As you say, it might just as well be a Disneyland, if they decided to buy an interest for advertising purposes.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,616 Posts
Or does Emirates really race yachts? (I proudly wear my Team NZ cap here in California by the way). Of course not, but either way it comes down to the engineers and drivers, they're the ones that make a team successful or not. Is Williams not Williams any more because the Williams family has sold it? Or did the 'real' Williams really only exist when Patrick Head was there? Is McLaren as we've known it for the last few decades really McLaren or did that die when the Remuera kid died at Goodwood 51 years ago?

Brands these days are bought and sold as commercial entities, as items with a dollar value no different to any other commodity. But a brand does not make the company, the people who work there do. So yes, McLaren really is McLaren because the people who came after Bruce made it that. And Mercedes F1 really is Mercedes F1 because Toto and the others who work there make it a company.

Pete - it's ironic you mention Lotus in this context. I recall they were the first in F1 to paint their car in the colours of a sponsor, Gold Leaf tobacco, and that first appeared in the 1967-68 Tasman series. My quick research says the 1st race was at Wigram, with one J.Clark driving a Lotus 49T. That was the 3rd race of the series, Pukekohe and Levin preceded it, and it was followed by Teretonga and the Australian rounds of the series.

I do digress, but my point is that it's not who owns the team or even the factory that it comes from that matters but the people who run and work in it.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
308 Posts
Quite a fiasco today, IMHO. If Hamilton hadn’t gone into the corner way too fast to make the apex and stay online there would have been no collision. Indeed, without hitting Max’s car he would have continued to understeer even wider and likely would have forced Max off the track even if Max had backed off a bit.

The largely British broadcast crew of course spoke of how Lewis is such a clean driver with no history of this. Rubbish! Ask Alex Albon who twice was driven off the track by Lewis last year, costing him his first podium and another top four finish. Hamilton was found at fault for both collisions and again received only marginal time penalties. To do so at what is likely the highest speed corner in the F1 calendar was incredibly dangerous, although F1 gave him a penalty which virtually ensured him the win with his top competitor out of the race. Indeed, the red flag he caused enabled his car to be repaired without losing what would have been a lot more time than 10 seconds in the pits. Today’s and last years penalties can only operate so as to encourage Hamilton and others to be even more reckless in the future.

Then for Hamilton to attack Max after the race, suggesting he was essentially getting what he deserved for being too aggressive was completely classless. He could have simply said he accepts some blame, but thinks it was an unfortunate racing incident that taints his victory. He could have, should have admitted that it was too ambitious a passing attempt and that he went into the corner too fast and missed the apex, but also suggested that Max was partially to blame for assuming he would make the apex and then turning in.

Remember in the last race drivers received similar time penalties and penalty points for running wide and forcing another car off the track, even in much slower/less dangerous corners and even when the other car did not receive any significant damage. What Max should have done, I guess, was to let Hamilton drive him off the track, hope he could control it and keep off the wall and then pray the stewards would give Hamilton a similar penalty. Easy in hindsight and, of course, does anyone have complete confidence that the British stewards would have penalized Hamilton the same way?

Anyway, I fear things will only get uglier.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,374 Posts
Racing incident. Two spoiled brats full of adrenaline, neither willing to lift. Still it keeps the media and the circus flapping their jaws so its a win win for F1.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
308 Posts
Alfettaparts2, I hear you. And no, Max is not exactly Mr. Clean. But running wide on the inside of a car at the highest speed corner in F1 is a recipe for disaster.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,374 Posts
I agree man. Pretty crazy stuff from both of them I think. Lewis shouldn't have been there but max also had a huge amount of room to his left. Best thing is Max is ok and will fight another day.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
308 Posts
On a positive note, it was great to see Danny Ric holding off a faster Ferrari for so long and yet to say he still needs to do better; to see Alonso, after a butchered pit stop which cost him a place to Stroll. make no critical comments towards his team but rather come out and make an aggressive but clean pass on cold tires to regain the position. This after he had, earlier in the race, slightly exceeded track limits in passing Vettel and given the position back immediately and without being told.

Consider too Alonso’s incredibly clean but agressive passes in the first lap of the sprint race, moving up from 11th to 5th and the difference is obvious. Hearing his positive and encouraging comments about young competitors ( and his disparaging ones about overly aggressive first lap accidents only two weekends ago ) only increses my respect for the man.
At one time *****ly, he seems now to be calm, sage and yet still a racer in the truest sense. One who Danny Ric acknowledged as being maybe the best racer of all, after the sprint race, in spite of Alonso making aggressive ( but legal and safe ) moves to break the tow on him for a number of laps. No BS from DR, unlike our current championship contenders and their team managers!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
187 Posts
Well it was overall quite an exciting watch, even for neutrals I hope. Incident of the race was of course that lap 1 collision with Hamilton desperate to get track position - he'd seen how the RB was untouchable when in front from yesterdays sprint race. Quite a shockingly big impact and Max visibly shaken and in pain afterwards, I was very glad to see him up and out of the car. Let's be honest, something like this has been coming and I have no doubt that Max would have done the same if the situation was reversed.

I initially put it down 100% to Hamiltons fault but on reviewing and listening to the arguments I'm more like 75/25. Hamilton was never ahead at any point but for a fraction of a second they were alongside each other. At the point of impact Verstappen was travelling faster than Hamilton simply because he braked later and carried more speed into the corner and so if the argument is that Hamilton was going too fast for the corner then the same would apply to Verstappen but more so. Would he have actually made the exit to that corner or run off like Leclerc later in the race? Verstappen thought he had the inside covered and was thrown by Hamilton switching at the last moment which put him offline. Still, quite a soft 10 second penalty IMO.

Nice to see a real crowd there and it has spiced up the Chamionship a bit. Great drives from Leclerc (who showed how to fight the same corner as Max without crashing), Ricciardo and Alonso, Poor Valterri looked physically and emotionally exhausted at the end.

Frustrating day for the two Alfa's who frustratingly seem so often to be just outside the top 10 with I think Kimi set for 11th until his spin. At least they are doing better than Haas with the same engine.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
103 Posts
I see the Max and Lewis show has soured a tad. It should keep it interesting over the rest of the season.

Not a fan of this sprint format. Looked more like a money generating exercise.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
308 Posts
Actually, I quite enjoyed the sprint race. Incredible first lap with a great deal of on track passing and more to follow in the race. And my opinion on the Lewis/Max accident has changed signifocantly after reading Alonso’s comments. He pointed out that while Hamilton was never in front of Max and missed the apex. which obviously was not his intention, he could not just ‘disappear’. In the end he said that these things happen and while it was frightening, he believed it should be classified as a racing incident.

Alosno has no skin in this game, unlike those associated with the protaganists or even those using Mercedes, or Honda engines in their cars. Considering his skill, wealth of experience and reputation for being a real racer with incredible judgment about a car’s on-track limits, I’ll gladly accept his opinion.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
312 Posts
Kimi cracks me up and I appreciate his blunt honesty. I just watched the F1 post-race video where they highlight the best of team radio. As the race ended the crew said, "It's a shame, with the accident with Perez. We could have maybe scored." Raikkonen responded by saying "Maybe, or maybe we need to make the car faster...simple! It's impossible to fight against them. Same this, same that, and try to fight with the other cars. Come on....we got to wake up and do something."
 
  • Like
Reactions: mhemsley

·
Registered
Joined
·
103 Posts
My take on the incident is slightly different.

Hamilton had Max beat on that corner and was deliberately running him wide to force him to slow down. Max knew he was going to lose the place. He would have run wide on the exit and lose the place. The same as Leclerc did when Hamilton did the same manoeuvre.

Max decided the only way to stay in front was to force Hamilton to brake by not slowing down and edging in front. Hamilton obviously thought that Max has taken an aggressive line all too often and forced him to brake to avoid a collision, not this time.

Will be interesting to see if either brake when they clash again.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,396 Posts
 

·
Administrator
Joined
·
14,965 Posts
The Max versus Lewis was just a racing incident. Neither driver could afford to show the other they were going to be soft, so they had a coming together. Big deal. This has happened every season where we have actually had a battle for the championship. Horner and co should simple leave F1 and go and ruin another sport.

Its all mind games and these guys cannot show the other guy they will lift and concede. Neither did, and next race Verstappen will be a bit more aware that Lewis still has a little fight left in him ... unlike Bottas who one could make lift off by simply yelling at him. Why is he still in that seat?
Pete
 
201 - 220 of 227 Posts
Top