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Finlandese said:
GTV116



So, now the most credible source is Italian tv? In matters regarding Ferrari!?!

LMAO!!!

Thank you, you really made my day....
You really have no idea what i am talking about!!
Italian tv and press were always critical against Ferrari's choises and policy.
They simply are not Ferrari haters.As the english press is!!
 

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landmark decision

Michael Schumacher, Monaco GP 2006© The Cahier ArchiveIt took seven and a half hours but finally the FIA stewards did the right thing. Michael Schumacher has been dumped to the back of the grid after the incident at the end of qualifying at Monte Carlo. For many in F1 this is a landmark decision. The Monaco Grand Prix is the big race of the year for sponsors and thus is of vital importance to the Formula 1 teams. They all want to do well at Monaco and the last thing they want is controversy or embarrassment. The decision by the FIA stewards on Saturday evening may have taken a long time coming but when it arrived it went down well with the media who had waited all evening for a ruling.

The federation has often been accused of being too lenient with Ferrari and of having stewards who do what they are told rather than what is right. The FIA recognised that there was a problem of perception and took the decision to appoint a permanent steward to be at each and every race. Tony Scott Andrews was low profile and not an FIA politician.

The Schumacher Case at Monte Carlo was his first big controversy in the new job and the decision that was finally handed down did much to restore faith in the system of stewards. The decision was plain good sense. The stewards listened the various stories from Michael Schumacher, his engineer Chris Dyer, the Ferrari technical director Ross Brawn and the team manager Stefano Domenicali. In addition the race director Charlie Whiting and software analyst Alan Prudom were consulted as was data evidence from the team and from the FIA. The stewards watched videos and did comparisons between the important lap and those that had been run previously. It was a thorough job and the conclusions threw out the ****-and-bull story put forward by Michael Schumacher and concluded that "the driver deliberately stopped his car on the circuit in the last few minutes of qualifying at a time at which he had thus far set the fastest lap time".

The decision was based on the data about that last lap that revealed that Schumacher had lost time in the middle sector of his last lap and arrived at Rascasse at a speed that was little if any different from his previous fast lap. Schumacher then braked heavily and locked up the front wheels.

"Having compared all relevant data the stewards can find no justifiable reason for the driver to have braked with such undue, excessive and unusual pressure at this part of the circuit," they wrote, "and are left with no alternative but to conclude that the driver deliberately stopped his car on the circuit."

This is, of course, an infringement and as the rules allow the stewards to cancel all of Schumacher's qualifying times, they decided to do exactly that and so force Michael to start the race at the back of the grid, alongside his team mate Felipe Massa, who had crashed early in the session.

Thus Ferrari will line up with its cars sharing the back row of the grid - a message that indicates that the stewards are not stupid; that such behaviour will not be tolerated - even from a man like Michael Schumacher.

Schumacher has done himself much damage in all of this. The media was outraged; his fellow drivers were furious and no-one had any sympathy. Winning is all very well and Michael has always been a winner but the stewards have finally sent out the message that winning at any cost is not acceptable. It is a message that the youngsters of today need to take in.

For many Schumacher has been the role model but, with this ruling, the FIA has made it clear that if Michael cannot control himself, he will be controlled by the stewards.

All things considered, it was an important moment for F1.
 

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GTV116 said:
Stewards' decision was a landmark of misjudgement, based on the stupid theory that the human error is forbiden, as you don't have the right to take a curve in a different line than the line you used at the previous two passages...
I have to disagree here. An error is just that; an error, i.e. not intentional. Schumi was penalized for an 'error' that was decided to be intentional. There's a big difference.
The on board camera showed that while in mid corner, MS straightened the steering wheel not once but twice. Conclusive evidence of an intentional miscue? Perhaps. Perhaps not. Combined however with the cars telemetry, the decision was made that it was intentional.
I'm not well versed on the workings of the Ferrari's gearbox hydraulics but after MS stopped and the nose of the car facing uphill, couldn't MS have let the car roll downhill and out of the line?
 

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TASOS CHATZ

Even previous champions like Hill and Hakinen were good enough when they had by far the best car, but they didn't manage anything afterwards and they retired.
First of all, it is very hard determine the relative performance levels of a single part of the package (driver/car/engine/tires), even for professionals, let alone for the press or the fans. So, their statemants regading these matters are opinions, not facts until they are assesed independently in a controlled enviroment.

My Second problem is your statement regarding Hakkinen (with two k´s) whom you claim not to have achieved anything, except when he had a car that was "by far the best car". If we start from the assumption that MacLaren was superior to Ferrari (or as you probably would put: "by far the best car") in 1998, Hakkinen won the WDC the next year, was the runner up the next year(losing the WDC at the last race) and after annoucing his intention to retire in 2001 won at Silverstone and at Indianapolis. Not even the most deluded Ferrari fan would claim that he had a "by far the best car" in 2000 & 2001. So, based on documented history, in this case his results (facts) in a machinery that wasn´t capabal of the WCC, I find you statement false.

As for the incident in qualifying itself I have yet to meet a person with any racing experience who can give me a benign explanation to that last left jab away from the turn MS did when the rear of the car was not sliding.

P.s. I didn´t comment on the grand conspiracy portion of your post, as I don´t feel my reply would elevate the level of this discussion..
 

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Papajam,

Ferrari´s anti-stall systems shuts down the engine after ten seconds of standing still if it not disabled. Shumi chose not to. He also had a reverse gear available but didn´t use it as it would have been unsafe in his opinion.
 

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I have to make a suggestion.

Bann Michael from F1 FOR EVER
 

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Well interesting comments some more than others.

But Shumi is a competitor thats his flaw he wants to win period.

I belive he will go down as the best of all time based on what he has accomplished.

I don't think he should have went to the back maybe put him third or fourth would have been better. He certainly would have qualified at the very least third.

I don't belive the other drivers are saints.

I especially don't like Alonso because he acts like an idiot when he wins his dance is retarded. His driving skills are very good but how much is the car and how much is due to ability. Would be nice to have equal cars and see who is the best skilled.

Anyway the punishment was to harsh my opinion.

I can't wait till the next race and more so Montreal since I have tickets and it will be the first race for me in person. I will wear Ferrari red to support my team and I'm proud of Ferari/Shumi.

I value a fair race too so punish yes but not to the back of the grid. I don't like anyone winning a Championship with a silver spoon.
 

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Finlandese said:
GTV116,

Not single British newspaper were printed between the incident and the decision.
The word "press" includes all items printed either in newspapers or on the net.And anyway i was refering to english press' attitude in general and not to the specific incident.
 

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Does anybody in this forum know the nationality of the steward who made the decision regarding Schumacher's punishment?
HE IS SPANIARD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!And that's not a joke!
They are rediculous!!
 

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Discussion Starter #171
GTV116 said:
You really have no idea what i am talking about!!
Italian tv and press were always critical against Ferrari's choises and policy.
They simply are not Ferrari haters.As the english press is!!
Having read the Italian press while stationed in Germany I would agree with the above. The Italian press is always very critical of Ferrari, sometimes even when they win (why wasn't it 1-2, why was McLaren so close, etc)! You should go back and look how they pilloried drivers like Alesi, Alboreto and Capelli. They were toasted!

The UK press hate Schumacher with a passion and refuse to recognize his accomplishments. Remember, these are the same guys who gave Button "Driver of the Year" (0 wins) over the WC Schumacher who dominated every race! So before the car even stalled he was "guilty" and the pundits were rushing to the keyboards. And then look who is making the decision - Tony Scott-Andrews.... hmmmmm, wonder where he is from? If it was so clear an infraction why did it take so long to make a decision? - they handed Fisi's down right away.

Here is a little clip on Tony since we are quoting articles:

formula 1 permanent race steward as consistent as diarrhea

At the start of the 2006 Formula 1 season, the FIA decided to appoint a permanent steward to attend every round of the Formula 1 season. Brilliant idea! It would bring consistency, fairness and certainty to Formula 1 races from round to round.

But like all things associated with the FIA, the reality hasn't quite meshed with the concept. Tony Scott-Andrews was the flunky appointed by Max to undertake this important task. Here's a couple of incidents we've seen this year and Tony Scott-Andrews' and his group of monkeys rulings.

-Fisi calls his car a piece of **** over the team radio - broadcast to millions - no action
-Beavis and Butthead Speed tells DC to f*ck off behind closed doors - $5000 fine
-Fisi calls JV a "stronzo" (ask your Italian friends what that means) on camera - broadcast to millions - no action.

*** Tony? Spud's no prude and thinks it's hilarious to hear Formula 1 drivers cursing like a Spud, but still can't understand what the deal is with Speed's fine.

Well, Tony Scott-Andrews is an FIA representative, and to expect common sense, consistency and fairness would be a little too much to ask. The moral of the story? Swear as much as you like in font of millions, just don't do it behind closed doors to DC.
 

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Discussion Starter #172
TASOS CHATZ said:
F1 is an industry that involves some huge money, most coming from viewing rates.... To conclude with, in my opinion it is not a matter of an incident, but to which direction the top heads wish to push things up to.
In the end I think the above is the bottom line. While I, and probably all of you, want to think of racing as sport, sadly under Bernie it is big business, where the "bottom line" decides everything. Decisions are made not because they are "right," but because they are good for the F1 profit margin. Really sad IMHO, especially because as a child I wandered the open paddock at Watkins Glen and met such luminaries as Sir Jackie, Mario Andretti, Emerson Fittapaldi, James Hunt, Jackie Ickx, Niki Lauda, and my all-time favorite Vittorio Brambilla, to name just a few, and that is what spawned my love of motorsport. Today the only way you can meet the drivers is at a mega dollar corporate sponsorship event or get a mega dollar or corporate paddock pass. Really sad....
 

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Why bother..

GTV116

Does anybody in this forum know the nationality of the steward who made the decision regarding Schumacher's punishment?
HE IS SPANIARD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!And that's not a joke!
They are rediculous!!
Tony Scott-Andrews is British. Or maybe we should start to call him El Tony Scott-Andrews..



deltahf2
Decisions are made not because they are "right," but because they are good for the F1 profit margin.
Only decision that would´ve been worse commercially F1 than what happened saturday would´ve been to exclude him from the race. It is in the commercial rights holders (Bernie) intrest to have close race for the championship, climaxing in the last race that decides it all. If the profit margin would´ve been the criteria, Shumi would´ve been on the pole.

deltahf2

Having read the Italian press while stationed in Germany I would agree with the above. The Italian press is always very critical of Ferrari, sometimes even when they win (why wasn't it 1-2, why was McLaren so close, etc)! You should go back and look how they pilloried drivers like Alesi, Alboreto and Capelli. They were toasted!
It is well known, that the Italian drivers haven´t recieved any support from the italian press since Ascari, and I´m pretty sure that even then they were backing Maserati, Alfa and Lancia and Ferrari even more. The teams and especially Ferrari are a very different matter. But, Italian press a credibel source on anything? Am I the only on that sees the irony here?

On a previous matter, how about Keke and Sir Jackie, then? How exatly are they hypocrites, as you accused?


P.s. Still, haven´t met a person with any racing experience who can give me a benign explanation to that last left jab away from the turn MS did, considering that the rear of the car was not sliding.
 

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GTV116 said:
the nationality of the steward who made the decision regarding Schumacher's punishment?
HE IS SPANIARD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!And that's not a joke!
They are rediculous!!
Sorry, the word in english is SPANISH, and there was 3 stewards (from UK, Monaco and Spain).

Alonso has the best car? And Fisichella?

Schumaker don´t win now because Alonso has de best car? And the Ferrari in the last 6 years? Wasn´t it the best car? Always the same history. Schumi the best driver and the others has the best car (poor publicity for Ferrari)

Alonso do a idiot dance … is true, but the drivers who wear like superman?

I am from Spain but not an Alonso fan. …. But also think that NOW he is the best driver.

I see that here there are a lot of tifosis. But the most common opinion among the drivers is that the schumaker action is a cheat and that such behaviour would not be tolerated.


The decision was based on the data about that last lap that revealed that Schumacher had lost time in the middle sector of his last lap and arrived at Rascasse at a speed that was little if any different from his previous fast lap. Schumacher then braked heavily and locked up the front wheels..
 

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Discussion Starter #175
Finlandese said:
On a previous matter, how about Keke and Sir Jackie, then? How exatly are they hypocrites, as you accused?
March 21, 1982, Brazilian GP, Rosberg excluded from the race classification when during the post-race scrutiny his car was found to be running an illegal water-cooled braking system. Cheater - excluded.
 

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Discussion Starter #176
CarlosSpider said:
But also think that NOW he is the best driver.QUOTE]

I think so too Carlos - incredibly quick, smart, patient, mature (as a driver), great race strategist - really superb, it is a joy to watch him, although I have to admit I would enjoy it a LOT more if he were driving a Ferrari :) He was competitive even before Renault had the best car, and what strikes me over the last couple years is that he no longer makes silly mistakes, which is something Schumacher (spinning at Indy while alone in the lead, to name just one) and others, like Montoya, seem to do with some frequency. A real talent.
 

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To Finlandese
I seem to recall, although I can not back it up since I don't remember the exact racing season, that once MS did drive a MacLaren in their own home and he improved their record by 1 sec or so. If someone else recalls it, please step in.
I never said that Hakkinen (excuse my orthography) was not a good driver. I just made a comparison of him and other top drivers of his time against MS. As for Mika winning two races at his final season, that proves that he is a pro. If he wouldn't race for victory then he shouldn't race at all and that's the attitude that made him a world champion.
I am not a Ferrari fan, I am a MS fun. I actually believe that with all the money Ferrari spend the previous years, they should have cars that even a medium class driver could be competitive.
Documented history and facts can also be called statistics.
My comments were not about a specific incident, but against all the antiMS people from which I 'd like to know the drivers they support and if they get as much joy and for such a long time as I get from MS.
Finally I like to express my apologies to the rest of the forum's members if my comments do not elevate the level of this discussion. I guess I am not a romantic type and I just want to believe that F1 exists just for money, publicity and promo that do generate money and not because of the sport spirit of all these people no matter the huge capital involved.
 

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deltahf2,

March 21, 1982, Brazilian GP, Rosberg excluded from the race classification when during the post-race scrutiny his car was found to be running an illegal water-cooled braking system. Cheater - excluded.
So Rosberg, the man becomes a cheater when Williams, the car that he drove was disqualied in the post race scrutineering? For running a system that FIA had a full knowledge of and which they (and all the other non-turbo teams) had raced on the previous race (again with FIA´s full knowledge). And the system wasn´t even illegal(the size of those water tanks was the sticking point - letter vs. spirit of the rules)! That decision was so controversial, that all the FOCA teams (Formula One Constructors Association teams, which formed the majority of the teams and included amongst others Maclaren, Williams, Lotus, Brabham, etc.) boycotted the next race in Imola.

Have to say that you set a pretty high bar for sportsmans integrity. Keke who has an impeccebal record becomes a cheater for having his previously legal car suddenly declared illegal. Then again, it might be that you were misinformed about this incident, and were under false impression.

Unfortunenately I´ve just heard it too many times from other people, when discussing what ever Shumi(or in the past Senna) has done that time: "They all are cheaters" and then comes the list of drivers who were disqualified due some technical infringement by their team and comparing it to Shumi´s(or Senna´s) unbelievable disregard for the sporting requlations and safety of other drivers. That´s why I get in to these discussions way too easily, considering that I could be using my time much more productively, for example studying which one to buy De Tomaso Longchamp or Iso Lele..

P.s. Still, haven´t met a person with any racing experience who can give me a benign explanation to that last left jab away from the turn MS did, considering that the rear of the car was not sliding.
 

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TASOS CHATZ,

Even previous champions like Hill and Hakinen were good enough when they had by far the best car, but they didn't manage anything afterwards and they retired.
I never said that Hakkinen (excuse my orthography) was not a good driver.
Obviously I misunderstood you. My apologies.

P.s. Still, haven´t met a person with any racing experience who can give me a benign explanation to that last left jab away from the turn MS did, considering that the rear of the car was not sliding.
 
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