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As i've already posted, the main problem is Ferrari's persistence in participating in a sport, which is dominated,ruled and guided by men of Bernie's,Dennis',Frank Williams' and Briatore's quality!!!!!!!
Great!!!
 

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alfa_164s said:
Just because of his reputation. If he would have been clean i don t think any will have suspicion. The commentators here were like "Ho what happen? Don t tell me he did it purposefully!"
That comment is intolerant and stands against the fundamental principle of our legal system's tradition and philosophy, as it is known from the Roman law:IN DUBIO PRO REO.That means that you can't condemn anyone's acts, based on his reputation,character or even on single indications.You need proof!
Did the Monaco GP stewards really had proof in their hands?
 

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AllthingsZagato said:
Re the Todt quote, what he fails to mention is that after sector 2 Michael was DOWN on his best time, he was not going to improve and would have known that Alonso, Weber, Fisichella and Raikonnen were on hot laps. It was not the difference between P1 & P2 but P1 and probably P5, with Alonso on pole that he was thinking of I suspect. Michael entered the corner at his usual speed, not way too fast and yet makes an incrdible mistake not matched by even the GP2 runners let alone another F1 driver.
As for re-establishing the 'golden era' for sure they brought incredible success back but think of;
Barichello being told to pull over in '02 on the last lap
The same happening to Salo for Irvines benefit in 99
Cynical holding up of Hakinnen by Schumacher to allow Irvine to win and stay in the championship in Malaysia '99
The 'oversize' barge boards to distract people from what was really being done again in '99
and course Villeneuve in '97.
Let us also not forget the the team is now an internationally run team, the days of the great Italians is long gone.
OK!!You 've made your point.
Don't forget that Barrichello's obedience in Austria, was rewarded by a number of victories in the 2002 and 2004 season,which were Schumacher's gifts/ gestures of generosity to his teammate.But i guess that this is not a bad image for the sport itself and its fair play principle, as long as these wins are not for Schumacher's profit.
Schumacher was selfish enough to give any kind of help to Irvine,in order to bring back to Maranello a title not gained by him.So what are you talking about?
The times of great Italians were those of prototype's and endurance's races.Not of Formula1 races.Ferrari's possibility to manipulate or dictate FIA's policy and decisions was always weak.But i can presume that you prefer the "italian" days of Ferrari,which were the days that killed Gilles Villeneuve and injured Pironi in the highly perverse and problematic 126C2 and gave the opportunity to the Alesi/Berger duel to gain two victories in a five season period (91-95).
 

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All that is PO.
 

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1 alonzo , 2 montoya , 3 coulthard , 4 barrichello , 5 SCHUMI ,6 fisic

alonzo 64 shumi 43 . IT could be a big turn in the champion ship !
 

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Discussion Starter #146
Monaco Results:

1. Fernando Alonso Spain Renault 78
2. Juan Pablo Montoya Colombia McLaren-Mercedes 78 14.5
3. David Coulthard Britain Red Bull-Ferrari 78 52.2
4. Rubens Barrichello Brazil Honda 78 53.3
5. Michael Schumacher Germany Ferrari 78 53.8
6. Giancarlo Fisichella Italy Renault 78 62.0
7. Nick Heidfeld Germany Sauber-BMW 77 1 Lap
8. Ralf Schumacher Germany Toyota 77 1 Lap
9. Felipe Massa Brazil Ferrari 77 1 Lap
10. Vitantonio Liuzzi Italy Toro Rosso-Cosworth 77 1 Lap
11. Jenson Button Britain Honda 77 1 Lap
12. Christijan Albers Netherlands MF1-Toyota 77 1 Lap
13. Scott Speed United States Toro Rosso-Cosworth 77 1 Lap
14. Jacques Villeneuve Canada Sauber-BMW 77 1 Lap
15. Tiago Monteiro Portugal MF1-Toyota 76 2 Laps
16. Franck Montagny France Super Aguri-Honda 76 2 Laps
17. Jarno Trulli Italy Toyota 78 6 Laps

R Christian Klien Austria Red Bull-Ferrari 56
R Nico Rosberg Germany Williams-Cosworth 51 Accident
R Kimi Raikkonen Finland McLaren-Mercedes 50
R Mark Webber Australia Williams-Cosworth 48
R Takuma Sato Japan Super Aguri-Honda 46
FASTEST LAP:
Michael Schumacher Germany Ferrari 75 1:15.143
 

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Discussion Starter #147
An entertaining race until the late retirements at the frontb eliminated the drama - Kimi appeared to have the pace to at least try to get by Alonso. A great drive by Schumacher, another 10 laps and he would have been on the podium. Kudos to DC!

I wonder what JV will say about the professionalism of drivers speeding in the pitlane?
 

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deltahf_2 I wonder what JV will say about the professionalism of drivers speeding in the pitlane?[/QUOTE said:
errare humanum est (sed perseverare diabolicum )!

a mistake is not cheating !
 

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Discussion Starter #149
pepiot said:
a mistake is not cheating !
It seems I was mistaken, according to the official F1 site JV didn't make a "mistake" by speeding in the pitlane, he:

"BMW Sauber’s Jacques Villeneuve (who was given a drive-through for passing Rosberg under the safety car),"

Hmmmm, passing under the safety car - that wouldn't be cheating to gain a place on the track, would it?
 

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Well why not suspend him for all the races....Might as well give Alonso the championship now.

I don't know if Shumi did it on purpose or not I don't think anyone knows accept for Shumi.

It doesn't change how I feel about this driver he is still the best and if he has one weekness its he likes to win period.

To put him behind 15 cars stupid!!

But nice to see him get the fastest lap!

I don't think he gets any respect by anyone and this is a true shame for he will go down in history as one of the best drivers in F1 of all time. I feel priviledged to see him drive.:D
 

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The in car camera sure made it look like it was on purpose. Schumi is a great driver, and he did not need to do that. However, he lost a few points with me this weekend because of it. I love Ferrari, and always root for them--since I was a little kid, however, he could have had the podium if not for the penalty. Yes, he had his moments today, with fastest lap, but lets face it, if it weren't for the retirements of some high profile drivers/cars, he would have been a backmarker. Especially owing to the nature of the course.
 

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Sprintn said:
Okay... I saw the footage. Michaels line and speed through that double apex turn was just totally OFF! If he would have come in too hot, as he says he did, there is no way he would have been able to hug the inside of that section of the track at such a slow speed! He was way off the racing line... to the inside of it!!!! He would have pushed to the outside if he would have locked the fronts up! That was just strange. On purpose or not... it was right for him to be penalized for blocking traffic and prohibiting others from setting a fast lap.
It was most definitely on purpose. He could have made that corner easily. He is fool for not understanding that many, many people watching have some ability too and know **** well he could have atleast made the corner ... slowly.

Now if he had locked a wheel into a barrier that would have been convincing ... but he naturally did not want to hurt his car.

GTV116 said:
Don't forget that Barrichello's obedience in Austria, was rewarded by a number of victories in the 2002 and 2004 season,which were Schumacher's gifts/ gestures of generosity to his teammate.But i guess that this is not a bad image for the sport itself and its fair play principle, as long as these wins are not for Schumacher's profit.
MS only does this once HE has come out on top, ie. the WC is his or the teammate has no chance, etc.
Schumacher was selfish enough to give any kind of help to Irvine,in order to bring back to Maranello a title not gained by him.So what are you talking about?
MS ensured that Irvine would NEVER win the drivers WC ... but allowed the team to win. He could have helped Irvine win an undeserving drivers WC ... but didn't.

MS wants to win TOO much.
ALFA-75-MAN said:
I don't think he gets any respect by anyone and this is a true shame for he will go down in history as one of the best drivers in F1 of all time. I feel priviledged to see him drive.
MS does not deserve any respect as a racing driver. He is very, very fast and his early years at Ferrari were awesome, but he is a flawed character.

He very deserved will be remembered as a unhonourable winner. Just like Senna is remembered by people with their eyes open as a ruthless bastard on the track ... but superbly fast too ;).

BTW: I am a big fan of MS's never give up attitude ... and he is probably still one of my most favourite drivers, but one cannot ignore these hideously unsporting things.
Pete
 

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Discussion Starter #153
PSk said:
He very deserved will be remembered as a unhonourable winner. Just like Senna is remembered by people with their eyes open as a ruthless bastard on the track ... but superbly fast too ;).
Pete
Maybe, or as time passes he may be "rehabilitated" like Senna, who is so often portrayed as a saint. He will be remembered though, as the most successful F1 driver of all time, while all of his competitors are consigned to obscurity and irrelevance, just like they have been on the track.

It should come as no surprise that the two greatest and most successful drivers of the modern era are/were ruthless competitors. You have to be to win. What have they always said about DC, who is certainly a talented driver - that he is too good a person to be WC. I like DC, but I think they're right. Although we may not like to admit it, that ruthlessness and ability to go to 10/10's is what separates the great driver from the rest of the field. That the great driver may not be a great person is another story.

The only other comment I would add from my own very limited racing experience is that anyone who can afford to or has the opportunity to cheats. From F1 to local races. Remember the Brabham "sucker" car, where they had a mechanic on the other side of the car with his foot lifting the skirt during testing to "prove" the fan didn't generate downforce? It happens all the time. Ferrari's wing flexed and it was protested, and then in Spain Renault's flexed far more. If the Ferraris started like the Renaults do I am sure there would be some protest that Ferrari was using launch control. Every team and driver tries to gain some advantage, within the rules, skirting the rules, or just plain breaking them, and it is hypocritical for people like Sir Jackie and Rosberg to bleat about how "shocked" they were by Michael's presumed action.

I think JPM said it best when they asked him about it. He said something to the effect that last year the stewards penalized him for something even though he felt he had done nothing wrong, and it was clear Michael felt the same way. Case closed, move on.
 

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deltahf_2 said:
...

The only other comment I would add from my own very limited racing experience is that anyone who can afford to or has the opportunity to cheats. From F1 to local races ... and it is hypocritical for people like Sir Jackie and Rosberg to bleat about how "shocked" they were by Michael's presumed action.
I think there are some great points made in your post (I have quoted the above as I want to add something).

It is the normal and accepted that the team cheats (as finding a mechanical advantage is what motorsport is all about), but the sportsman (represented by the driver) in motorsport has, or should have, a touch of honour so the win really was a win.

Without this we run the risk of drivers purposely killing other drivers just to win (and Senna got close ...).

If you look back in the history of motorsport there has been an enormous amount of driver honour ... and if you race you know when you are really beaten or not, and this is why this panel rubbing pass moves of modern motorsport pisses me off. You dam well know as the driver whether you are the faster of the battle or not ... it should not have to resort to 'banging' others off. And if you cannot out smart the guy in front ... just smashing his car off (like Aussie V8 Supercars) is hardly something to feel proud about afterwards.

Without this honour and respect for your fellow competitor ... hmmm, what is left? ... a pretty hollow and ****ty sport IMO.

MS is not showing the right way to the young guys and girls ... but then is he also highlighting the problems the modern sport faces?.
Pete
 

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Since people are starting to call people that I (and quite a few other people) have pretty high opinion of, as hypocrites, I´d like to have some examples of Keke´s and Sir Jackie´s unsportsman like behaviour, please..
 

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F1 is an industry that involves some huge money, most coming from viewing rates. MS's and Ferrari's success for the last years generated a problem as viewing rates in many countries declined. They did try to promote other drivers as possible competitors (JV, KR, JPM and others) but nobody could stand up to it. Even previous champions like Hill and Hakinen were good enough when they had by far the best car, but they didn't manage anything afterwards and they retired. As for JV, we see what he does now. It is also worth to consider that Damon and Jack were not in much demand by the top teams, no matter of their WC titles, makes you wonder why. The above is not just my opinion but facts. For the last decade or so, nobody exhibited MS's longevity and stability ( first or second).
Now, that finally a new top driver rised (Alonso), it is for their best financial interest to keep him at the top and propably push MS to retire or keep him second at a close but safe distance, since no other compination seems to be able to keep in touch with Renault. Every driver that is hungry for victory will always push the envelope a bit further and might not always be a gent, but these people offer to us the best show.
To conclude with, in my opinion it is not a matter of an incident, but to which direction the top heads wish to push things up to.
 

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Dedicated to all of you anti-Schumacher cry babies.
Stewards' decision was a landmark of misjudgement, based on the stupid theory that the human error is forbiden, as you don't have the right to take a curve in a different line than the line you used at the previous two passages (that's what data's examination was all about).It is also a decision which violates FIA's regulations in the worst possible way, as it was taken 81/2 hours after the incident, when according to FIA' s regulations the maximum time for the final verdict is 6 hours.The way the decision was written ,practically eliminated Ferrari's defence through objection or appeal.
If you have the opportunity to watch the incident through italian tv (Rai or Italia1), where ex formula 1 drivers and engineers and not journalists made the comments,you would have a different opinion.
Anyway Briatore/Goshn seems to represent F1's modern ethics.And Bernie's bitterness is well known.He failed to purchase 10% of Ferrari's shares (as Fiat bought the whole 29% of Ferrari's shares, which from 2002 belonged to a consortium of Banks.Fiat now is Ferrari's major shareholder with 85% of Ferrari's shares in its file)
Fortunately Ferrari's style is much different than that of Williams'and McLaren's.But make no mistake.This was the last time that FIA's mafia treated Ferrari in such a hideous way.
www.speedyshare.com/237272542.html
 

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GTV116

If you have the opportunity to watch the incident through italian tv (Rai or Italia1), where ex formula 1 drivers and engineers and not journalists made the comments,you would have a different opinion.
So, now the most credible source is Italian tv? In matters regarding Ferrari!?!

LMAO!!!

Thank you, you really made my day....
 

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I am reffering to other drivers's results up to date. If I describe something that history documented in a different way, please point it out.
 
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