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Sprintn said:
GTV116... I have to disagree with you. When a driver sees yellow flags but can't see what exactly it is around the blind corner, Only to see the back end of a car parked just off of what is already a very narrow racing line, this is enough to mess with his consentration, if only ever so slightly. Telemetry may not show it, but I'm sure Alonso's seat of the pants feel for the car was, at least, slightly disrupted.
Sprintn
I have always had a great respect for your modest opinion.I am just telling what i 've seen (several times).Alonso saw a yellow flag, which means caution.He didn't see a waved yellow flag, which usually means there has been an accident or spinout somewhere or there is some debris on the track.

Scumacher's punishment was a result of a violation of the article 116:"If, in the opinion of the stewards,a driver delibarately stops on the circuit or impedes another driver in any way during the qualifying practice session,his times will be cancelled".
And now is time for a little laugh!!
"Don" Joaquin Verdegay de la Vega, the steward who proposed Schumacher's punishment, at Gazzeta dello Sport: "We dont know if the entire manoeuvre was deliberatebut in that spot he had certainly not done anything like it throughout the weekend.He braked over 50% more heavily than on the other laps.If he had hit the barriers, we could have said that his move was not intentional".
Do i have to make any comment?
According to Todt,the stewards didn't examin Ferrari's data!!!!!
 

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Thanks GTV116... but you must admit that Micheal's approach into the corner and the line he took in the middle of the corner was beyond the practical variables... and was therefor VERY odd. If there was any kind of mechanical problem, surely he would have gone wide on entry as apposed to being able to stay in so tight to the guardrail. Put aside the last third of the corner and where he parked the car. What was he thinking through this first face of the corner? Or... was he? i think this is where Michael needs to do his explaining. The rest of the turn was a product of the entry and this very strange line. Hey... I too have a very hard time believing that he would do this on purpose.
 

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Sprintn
I am very pleased with your perspective.
What i am trying to say is that everything started with a driving error (very high speed i guess).This error caused a huge oversteer at the entrance of the first corner, which put the car of the racing line.A mechanical problem?Could be.Did you check the link i 've posted?.I think that something is going wrong with the way his inner(right) wheel is turning.
 

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GTV116 and Sprintn,

MS still could have got around that corner!

Thus yes maybe the first part was an unintentional error, but then when he realised he had stuffed it ... he purposely did not get around the corner.

He had slowed enough to give it a flick with the throttle to get around OR even not stall ... it WAS on purpose! If this had happened during the race MS would have got around the corner ... yeah his lap time would have been poor, maybe even 2 seconds off but he would have made it around.

This driving was just as poorly executed as the deliberate spins a couple of years ago at Silverstone to give him a better track time for his single lap.

I'm all for finding an advantage but this is just wrong.

Take the one eye patch off :D ... Ferrari is a great racing team and my sentimental favourite and has been for many, many years and always will be PLUS I am a big MS fan, but he has flaws. Next minute we will be debating that the 97 incident was not deliberate :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
Pete
 

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PSk said:
GTV116 and Sprintn,

MS still could have got around that corner!

Thus yes maybe the first part was an unintentional error, but then when he realised he had stuffed it ... he purposely did not get around the corner.

He had slowed enough to give it a flick with the throttle to get around OR even not stall ... it WAS on purpose! If this had happened during the race MS would have got around the corner ... yeah his lap time would have been poor, maybe even 2 seconds off but he would have made it around.

This driving was just as poorly executed as the deliberate spins a couple of years ago at Silverstone to give him a better track time for his single lap.

I'm all for finding an advantage but this is just wrong.

Take the one eye patch off :D ... Ferrari is a great racing team and my sentimental favourite and has been for many, many years and always will be PLUS I am a big MS fan, but he has flaws. Next minute we will be debating that the 97 incident was not deliberate :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
Pete

No doubt that MS is a great driver, but he is a self-absorbed, obnoxious human being who will do whatever is needed to win, including running people off the road. I don't know how anyone can be a fan of him....sorry, I forgot everything in the world today is about money and winning...
 

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dretceterini said:
No doubt that MS is a great driver, but he is a human being who will do whatever is needed to win, including running people off the road. I don't know how anyone can be a fan of him....sorry, I forgot everything in the world today is about money and winning...
Yeah I'm agreeing with you Dr Etc. ... I do struggle being a fan, and probably 'fan' is not the right word, more I simply respect his driving ability.

My 5 year old daughter always goes for him ... but that is probably because his is the only name she has learnt. I guess that was my fault :rolleyes: ... it's a hard thing to change ... now though.

Pete
 

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Psk... If you look at the pictures that GTV116 posted, the one in which Michael is close to the guardrail, which is the turn that the incident took place, You will notice that the car is oversteering and the front wheels have been given some opposit lock to correct the oversteer. This flick of opposit lock could be the "flick" to the left that we viewers see during the coverage from the in ****pit camera. From that view, yes, it looks like he decided to straighten the car out and go to the wall, when we all think he could of made the turn. But maybe the back end had broken loose and Michael was steering into the slide.?.? We all see Michael constantly messing with his Brake bias at almost every turn, even during a qualifying lap. Is it possible that there was a bit too much rear bias? This would make the rear end brake loose under braking. He knew he was not going to make the second apex given the line he had taken... and the stewards said that he had braked, what, 50% more.?. In my limited experience in Karts, THis would cause the rear to step out, the oversteer, the obvious loss of speed, and the need to correct to the left... which as I said before, looks from the ****pit as if Michael had chose to go straight instead of making the turn at the second apex. I Just have a very hard time thinking Micheal, or any professional would do this on purpose. I'm a very competative person and have competed very seriously at a fairly high level in various sports... and I do not feel that just because people are competitors and want to win, that they have an inherant (sp?) need to "cheat" like some have suggested on this thread. Or... maybe I'm just naive.?.? Please excuse my spelling... I know it kind of sucks. LOL!!!
Sprintn
 

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Sprintn said:
I Just have a very hard time thinking Micheal, or any professional would do this on purpose. ... Or... maybe I'm just naive.?.? Sprintn
How many times does MS have to do this before you believe he does not understand 'sportsmanship'? ;).

  • The '97 incident shows all he cares about is winning ... not how.
  • Heck even the '94 incident with Hill showed that, but I was more understandable with that one.
  • He was very much part of the over use of team orders at Ferrari. Now I support team orders when they are required, but not in the first half of a season.
  • He could have made that corner DEFINITELY ... and yes sacrificed his lap time to do so. He choose not to and thus to sacrifice everybody elses.
  • The over work of the steering wheel was his amature attempt at making it look like he was out of control. I've watch in car footage of MS since he started in F1 ... and the only time he has steered like that before was when he purposely spun at Silverstone a couple of years ago to get a better track time for his single qualifying lap. The guy is a great driver but a lousey (sp?) stunt driver :D.
  • He stalled the car ... I've seen him have looses worse than this and not stall and expertly spin the car around ... yep at Monaco (via TV) a few years ago.
  • Yeah car could have failed but he was not that 'right on the edge that he didn't hit anything' and this was at Monaco so the odds are he would have hit the wall.
You and I have honour and understand the right way of winning ... I don't think MS does unfortunately. Nobody is perfect, but this is a disappointing personal flaw.
Pete
ps: I could be wrong but I bet 95% of the population are thinking it was done on purpose ... he does it too often.
 

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Sprintn
Thanks.That's what i have in mind too.But i can't express it with my poor english.

Dr
Unfortunately we are leaving in the year 2006 and not in the 50s.As the correct name for Ferrari is Scuderia Ferrari Marlboro and F1 teams annual budget is bigger than that of a poor country, everything is about winning.Should we put the blame to MS for that?As a Ferrari fan i will always be grateful to MS.Because his driving skills and determination put Ferrari back on top, after so many years and reestablished its prestige.Yes he has character "issues".But that is something common to all of us.But i don't care about his character, as MS isn't a friend of mine ,a partner or a member of my family.And i think that is completely hopeless and pathetic the idea that MS or any race driver could be concidered as a role model for anyone.

PSk
The only thing people have in mind from the 97 season, is MS's filthy move on JV.That is unfair.Nobody takes in concideration that MS was a 28years old young man, driver of an uncompetitive car,with a huge pressure on his shoulders from a whole country (media,fans and Fiat itself) for a WC after almost 20 years.As i've posted elsewhere he did something in Jerez, which is not a safe indication of his character.He was so naive to repeat a trick, which was an invention of other drivers (with FIA and media's blessings), believing that was part of the game.
And as i am sick and tired of this theory.With the exception of Austria's 2002 GP,when and in which race, Barrichello or Irvine were quicker than MS and forced to follow team orders?
 

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That is not correct...

Sometimes, when Ferrari have managed to get all the ingredients of car, engine and driver together, the effort seems to go to sleep just when it looked as though championship was
theirs. Albereto drove superbly in 1985 and looking to become Italy's first World Champion since Ascari But then, in the last 5 races of the season, he qualified poorly and retired from all of them.

A similar sort of thing then happened to Schumacher in 1997. Schumacher was well on top of the points table but in end of the season the Ferrari was no longer competive, at a race he was then punted off by his brother at the first corner. Two wins in three races to Jacques Villeneuve gave the advantage back to the Williams camp. He couldn't accept the fact he lost the momentum....the rest is history.
 

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Sprintn said:
...You will notice that the car is oversteering and the front wheels have been given some opposit lock to correct the oversteer. This flick of opposit lock could be the "flick" to the left that we viewers see during the coverage from the in ****pit camera.
That 'little flick' on the on board is no where near enough to account for the wheel angle in the overhead shot which, IMHO, was taken on a different lap.
 

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Dear Enrico judge for yourself when and how much competitive F310B was compared to Williams.Take a good look at the qualif. times.
GP Australia:MS qualif. 3rd 1:31:4 JV qualif.1st 1:29:3
MS finished 2nd
GP Brazil:MS qualif.2nd 1:16:594 JV qualif.1st 1:16:004
MS finished 5th
GP Argentina:MS qualif.4th1:25:77 JV qualif.1st 1:24;47
MS DF
GP Imola:MS qual. 3rd 1:23:95 JV qual.1st 1:23:30
MS finished 2nd
GP Monaco:MS qual. 2nd 1:18:235 Frentzen qual. 1st 1:18:216
MS finished 1st (wet conditions)
GP Spain:MS qual.7th 1:18:31 JV qual.1st 1:16: 52
MS finished 4th
GP Canada:MS poleman 1:18:095 JV 2nd 1:18:108
MS finished 1st
GP France: MS poleman 1:14:54 Frentzen 2nd 1:14;74
MS finihed 1st
GP England:MS qual.4th1:21:97 JV qual. 1st 1:21:59
MS DF
GP Germany:MS qual.4th 1:42:18 Berger qual.1st 1:41:87
MS finished 2nd
GP Hungary:MS qual. 1st
MS finished 4th (tyre performance)
GP Italy:MS qual.9th 1:23:62 Alesi qual. 1st 1:22:99
MS finished 6th
GP Austria:MS qual.9th 1:11:05 JV qual. 1st 1:10:30
MS finished 6th (with a 10 sec penalty which cost him 2nd place)
GP Luxembourg:MS qual.5th 1:17: 38 Hakkinen qual.1st 1:16:60
MS DF (collision with Ralf)
GP Japan:MS qual. 2nd 1:36:13 JV qual. 1st 1:36:07
MS finished 1st
GP Europe:MS qual. 2nd JV qual.1st with the same time
MS DQF
 

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Sprintin,

You will notice that the car is oversteering and the front wheels have been given some opposit lock to correct the oversteer. This flick of opposit lock could be the "flick" to the left that we viewers see during the coverage from the in ****pit camera.
But that is excatly the core of the problem: The car did not oversteer during the incident at all! It was obvious from the Tv feed, that the tail was planted all the time. Shumi turned away from the apex, as if correcting a slide. But there was no slide!
 

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papajam,

That 'little flick' on the on board is no where near enough to account for the wheel angle in the overhead shot which, IMHO, was taken on a different lap.
The overhead shot was taken when the marshalls were removing Shumis car from the scene. That explains the wheel angle.
 

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The 1994 and 1995 were well-handling cars, such that Gerhard Berger took a Ferrari to victory at Hockenheim in 1994.When Michael Schumacher tested the Ferrari at the end of 1995, he found it better to drive than his championship-winning Benetton. However, the engine was the crucial factor in Ferrari being unable to head the pack. This time, instead of Honda dominance, it was the turn of Renault. To put it into perspective, in 1995 Ferrari provided the one and only non-Renault win, Jean Alesi's maiden victory in Canada.
One cannot say Michael Schumacher drove an inferior car in 1997 and the results show it even had reliability which is half the battle of winning a championship. In 1997 an inferior car would
have been an Arrows and not even the worlds fastest driver could remain in the race for the title. He never drove inferior F1 cars.
 

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Finlandese said:
papajam,
The overhead shot was taken when the marshalls were removing Shumis car from the scene. That explains the wheel angle.
Apologies for not being clear on which overhead shot, Jani. I was refering to the left pic in this post.
 
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