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Sorry to hi-jack your thread but this seems to be one of few places with deep Flaminia knowledge. I am totally restoring my 2,5 pf coupe engine and by coincidence came across this cam chain sprocket with holes in it. Is that the way they look in the 2.8l maybe or is it modifyed like this? The original one is without holes in the box.
 

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Discussion Starter #522 (Edited)
Sorry to hi-jack your thread but this seems to be one of few places with deep Flaminia knowledge. I am totally restoring my 2,5 pf coupe engine and by coincidence came across this cam chain sprocket with holes in it. Is that the way they look in the 2.8l maybe or is it modifyed like this? The original one is without holes in the box.

The one with the holes is of an early engine. I have seen this type only once, in an early 813.00 (Berlina 100 hp). It is not documented when Lancia changed to the cheaper design without holes.

Hubert
 

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Discussion Starter #523 (Edited)
Head off















As said before I thought my milling machine would be too small to handle such a big workpiece as an entire oil pan/block/head assembly. Due to that the oil pan and subsequently the crankshaft was removed. But the block/head was still too high for vertical machining. Luckily the head of the milling machine can be tilted. In this case the feed has to be made manually.

A frame had to be made to take up the block. It is 40 mm high because some of the blocked conrods protruded by about 35 mm. I shortened a drill to make it fit between the machine head and the cylinder head. By this it was possible to drill out about 40 mm starting from the surface of the head.

The left bank had six studs to get rid of. It turned out that 40 mm drilling is not quite enough to get the head loose, still had to use a long lever to get the head lifted. It took a lot of lifting and lowering again to get the exhaust side up. Used nameplates as a support between head and block to get the gap opened on that side.

Suspect that 55-60 mm will be necessary to get the head loose enough while retaining some rest stud to which a nut can be welded to turn it out.

Most important: no damage to the critical surfaces!!!


Hubert
 

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Well done.


What are your thoughts on why Jano designed the combustion chamber so the valves are inclined along the centre line of the engine and not perpendicular like the Alfa Nord and almost every other engine. Weird and means long ports within the head that have to turn 90 degrees (sort of). Was this desirable due to cold/snow so having ports with hot water around them is a good thing? Most unusual.
Pete
 

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It starts with De Virgilio's design of the Aurelia, and has to do with the pushrod/rocker design. Basically, the pushrods are at the top (inlet side) of the head, they activate rocker arms that rest in pillow boxes, and the valves are then placed in the head accordingly. There was a change in the Aurelia from straight across to skewed valves, but on the Flaminia it looks like they went back to straight across.

Below are images from book on the Aurelia engine - first is a cross section, see the valves and rockers. Second is the rocker assembly, and then there are the two different rocker solutions used - one straight across for the berlinas, and the skewed one (for adjusted valve location and more power) for the B20 coupe and B24 convertible.
 

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Interesting.

It's good that different solutions happen. Keeps life interesting
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Discussion Starter #530 (Edited)
Well done.


What are your thoughts on why Jano designed the combustion chamber so the valves are inclined along the centre line of the engine and not perpendicular like the Alfa Nord and almost every other engine. Weird and means long ports within the head that have to turn 90 degrees (sort of). Was this desirable due to cold/snow so having ports with hot water around them is a good thing? Most unusual.
Pete
Maybe there was some economic restriction in the specification sheet (hard to believe for Lancia at that time). With cams in head it would have needed at least two camshafts, if not four. Two different castings for the head instead of one for all in the given case.

I had a visitor recently, who was very experienced with engine design. I presented the Flaminia head to him, expecting some praise about it. His first words: poorly made, long ports, not straight . . . no wonder there is no output:frown2:

Hubert
 

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Though Ing. Francesco De Virgilio had determined that 60* was the ideal angle for a V6, the concept motor (Tipo 538) was designed to fit into the Aprilia, which usually had a narrow angle (17*) 1500cc V4. To fit the narrow engine bay,the Tipo 538 was 45*, using inline valves to keep it all as narrow as possible.

It was instead decided to design a new, larger chassis to carry the 60* version of the engine; the Aurelia was conceived. To again keep the engine narrow enough, inline valves were retained. This sufficed for the first two series, however larger displacement not only called for larger valves, but larger bores pushed the rockers too close, requiring the skew. Notice in the bottom picture how tight it all is.
 

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Regarding the cam in block, as opposed to overhead, keep in mind that these engines did not have valve guide seals, and oil control rings and liners wore quicker than current materials. Cam in block allowed removal of the heads for de-carbonizing (an issue in those days that we forget about now) without affecting the cam timing; just slap the heads back on...
 

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Though Ing. Francesco De Virgilio had determined that 60* was the ideal angle for a V6, the concept motor (Tipo 538) was designed to fit into the Aprilia, which usually had a narrow angle (17*) 1500cc V4. To fit the narrow engine bay,the Tipo 538 was 45*, using inline valves to keep it all as narrow as possible.

It was instead decided to design a new, larger chassis to carry the 60* version of the engine; the Aurelia was conceived. To again keep the engine narrow enough, inline valves were retained. This sufficed for the first two series, however larger displacement not only called for larger valves, but larger bores pushed the rockers too close, requiring the skew. Notice in the bottom picture how tight it all is.
The development of the skew was unrelated to the increase in bore size. It was a notion De Virgilio came up with in 1951 to get more power for the s.2 engine (ref: Lancia and De Virgilio, At the Center, p. 80).
 

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I was not suggesting Lancia did not use pushrods, and it is not the use pushrods I believe that created the 90 degree turned combustion chambers with stange long ports. Chrysler and Damiler designed hemi heads with the combustion chamber/valves oriented normally with short straight ports, and pushrods.

I guess if they were able to reuse existing parts from other engines, then fair enough.

But potentially another example of seemingly strange Lancia engineering :)
Pete
 

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Discussion Starter #537 (Edited)
Schenck, MOG, Masonry



Control box, starter, generator, distributor, water pump and 2.8 manifolds installed







My wife tells me it is high time for a holiday. Symptoms: I cannot sit still for more than 1 or 2 minutes! Then I have to jump up, go to "the Farm" do some soil moving work with the Unimog, dismantle engines, equip switch cabinets with door and shelf for the sake of tidiness, build masonry walls . . . There is some very important project in the company dying my hair white and that has to be compensated in the shop.

But my wife is concerned that this kind of hyperactivity will lead to an irreversible meltdown. Hence, she commanded a one-week beach holiday. Uhhh, that will be hard!

Need to hurry up a bit to get the engine prepared on the Schenck before that. Upgraded the controls a little bit and put them in a box. Looks better than the flying installation from the old test stand. Added a little bit of Flaminia appeal to it. Now I have to find a function, which the three lights shall indicate.

Ordered a complete exhaust which I am going to mount to the engine. Expecting less noise, more realistic power output and hope to lead the fumes outside through a window.

Next thing will be the frame for the radiator. I will make a new shroud at that time and will make some drawing of it, as promised lately.

And the rc of course









Friends drop in every now and then

Hubert
 

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The Flaminia engine never was a screamer, rather with its single cam and pushrods, was a good trade off of torque, durability and reasonable performance. Did you check with your engine friend how the 3C manifold compared to the single carb setup? Hp/liter was never superb in comparison to other more sporty offerings - the base Flaminia 2.5 was around 47 hp/l, the 3C at 56 hp/l. By comparison, Fulvias were in the mid-60s, and an Alfa Giulia Super around 70hp/l. Lancias were always more about their flat torque curves and easy driving than max power.

That said, 70mph in second gear in a Super Sport was good fun, as was the 100mph in third!
 
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