[David Heaslip]

My daughter just purchased a '78 Spider (injection) as her first car (we advised against it, but what can you do?).

On the pre-purchase test drive she fired right up time and again. Not she's in my driveway she only fires up occasionally. Normally when she's cold there's no problem, but when warm or at running temperature we go in to maybe will / maybe won't mode. I hear the external fuel pump running, and I've replaced the rubber connection on the pump in the tank (since that had a split in it). When I turn the key there is spark, and occasionally attempts to fire up, but she rarely goes the whole way and starts up. If I pull the plugs there is definitely fuel, and if I go too long I can smell it in the exhaust. When I come out the next morning she fires right up. I am making sure the battery is fully charged.

Is there a suggested order of checks that I should work my way through to try and find the problem?

Thanks,
David
Ashland, OR.

 

[divotandtralee]

The temptation is to pump the accelerator.. Don't do that.. There might be a sweet spot from zero to 1/2 inch depression of the pedal and perhaps a light feathering in only that range..if it fires on less than 4. Warm should be in your favor.

 

[bellagt]

David, It's hard to say without a real baseline of the state of tune. You mentioned that there's definitely fuel from looking at the plugs... are you saying they look wet? If so, they could be fouled or you could be running too rich or plug gaps could be too small... and what type of plugs are you running?

There are many things that could effect starting including the cold start solenoid, thermostatic actuator, SPICA pump gap setting for starters.

Starting with basics, I would get a fresh set of plugs (NGK BP7ES or 6ES if you want a hotter plug, or equivalent Champion RN6YCs... no need for anything fancy) gapped at 0.025" and see if that makes any difference in starting and noting the condition/color of the plug when you pull them. I would then check the SPICA pump gap to see if its at 0.019". Establish your baseline as best you can... read up on SPICA injection (use the Search function or Google Wes Ingram/SPICA Diagnosis). These cars are easier to work once you understand the fundamentals. More information on your injection and ignition system would be helpful. Keep us updated on what you find.

 

[David Heaslip]

David, It's hard to say without a real baseline of the state of tune. You mentioned that there's definitely fuel from looking at the plugs... are you saying they look wet? If so, they could be fouled or you could be running too rich or plug gaps could be too small... and what type of plugs are you running?

There are many things that could effect starting including the cold start solenoid, thermostatic actuator, SPICA pump gap setting for starters.

Starting with basics, I would get a fresh set of plugs (NGK BP7ES or 6ES if you want a hotter plug, or equivalent Champion RN6YCs... no need for anything fancy) gapped at 0.025" and see if that makes any difference in starting and noting the condition/color of the plug when you pull them. I would then check the SPICA pump gap to see if its at 0.019". Establish your baseline as best you can... read up on SPICA injection (use the Search function or Google Wes Ingram/SPICA Diagnosis). These cars are easier to work once you understand the fundamentals. More information on your injection and ignition system would be helpful. Keep us updated on what you find.

Hi Ken,
Thanks for your input. The current plugs are NGK BP7ES, and when pulled after running they are a little blacker than normal. I'll grab some new plugs and leads today, and a new battery too. The car had been sitting for a few years before we got her. Also, not sure if this is relevant, but when changing gears I'm getting a few pops and crackles from the exhaust. Is this normal for an Alpha, or is there likely a timing issue? Will report back!

 

[bellagt]

Hi Ken,
Thanks for your input. The current plugs are NGK BP7ES, and when pulled after running they are a little blacker than normal. I'll grab some new plugs and leads today, and a new battery too. The car had been sitting for a few years before we got her. Also, not sure if this is relevant, but when changing gears I'm getting a few pops and crackles from the exhaust. Is this normal for an Alpha, or is there likely a timing issue? Will report back!

The most important thing you need to remember is how to spell "Alfa Romeo" =)

If your plugs are just sooty (not fuel or oil fouled) they're probably fine, but starting with a fresh set rules simplifies diagnosis a bit.

The popping and cracking should not occur if the SPICA , throttle and intake manifold are set up and working correctly. More likely than not, some are is leaking by the throttle plates on off-throttle deceleration or there isn't sufficient slack in the throttle cable keeping the plates from fully closing. It's possible that the fuel cut off solenoid (or micro switch that engages the solenoid) are not working or the wiring to them is damaged or disconnected as well.

 

[GTA Alfa]

New plugs and a new battery will not make any big differences (save your money). Sounds like cold starts are fine but hots starts are sloppy or not happening at all.
So your getting too much fuel on hot starts, which fouls plugs, etc. First things are to determine the state of the T/A. Then check the CSS, its most likely set too rich. Try disconnecting the lead to the CSS on your next hot start. If it starts up fine disconnected, then probably 1/2 turn CW (down to lean) is probably all it really needs. Your will need to loosen the 24mm nut below the cold start solenoid. To test further, with black wire lead still disconnected to the CSS, apply a 12V source to the CSS lead, it should not stall immediately, but if set correct, should bog down and stall out within 5 seconds or so. If it ends up stalling out immediately its still set too rich. Screwing it up richens the mixture and down will lean the mixture. Richen or lean the CSS until the engine bogs without stalling.

 

[180OUT]

What is a T/A? What is a CSS? While we know what these are in all likelihood since he's new to the car David doesn't know..

 

[GTA Alfa]

I once didn't know either, even before the www....... Google is our friend now.

 

[divotandtralee]

In this case the seller is your friend,, dial him up and tell him how much you love the car.. even if you in fact don't which I doubt.. this sets the table for a good relationship. which is in your favor.. Then query him on the "personality" of the car not to cooperate when it is warm..He might be able to help you solve the issue or give you some advice as the past owner or at least some insight that he had the same issues and might have had it diagnosed but not addressed...

 

[zedsn]

When my spica is cold I don't have to touch the gas pedal and it will start and run after about 3 attempts. When car is hot that is another story. I have to play with the pedal a little bit and put it in a certain position while cranking to get it to start and once it starts it runs fine. I just figure that it is the nature of the beast. Maybe try this method as well or similar.

 

[David Heaslip]

In this case the seller is your friend,, dial him up and tell him how much you love the car.. even if you in fact don't which I doubt.. this sets the table for a good relationship. which is in your favor.. Then query him on the "personality" of the car not to cooperate when it is warm..He might be able to help you solve the issue or give you some advice as the past owner or at least some insight that he had the same issues and might have had it diagnosed but not addressed...

Sadly the previous owner bought the car as a project and never got round to doing anything, which is why she sat for over two years. From records, it looks like the last time anyone drove or worked on her was about 6 years ago.

 

[divotandtralee]

In your words .. "sadly"... sums up the conundrum.. You are lucky to be this far along.

 

[bellagt]

Establishing a baseline is then very important. If it hasn't been done, I'd change both fuel filters (one at the inlet to the electric pump and one to the inlet to the SPICA FI Pump) both oil filters (engine and SPICA FI pump), replace the coolant, replace the clutch and brake hydraulic fluid, and top off the steering box, tranny and differential oils.

I wouldn't be surprised if the Oil Vapor Separator is toast (@divotandtralee can provide a DIYer replacement) and the oil return line is plugged... I'm curious if the emissions equipment (air pump, EGR, etc) are still intact ... the cap and rotor are worth inspecting as well as points (if it hasn't been converted to electronic)... FI pump, ignition and cam timing should be checked at some time, but if the car is running ok they shouldn't be that far off.

I wouldn't adjust anything on the SPICA, especially anything related the throttle bell crank positioning, until you know the state of tune and the issues/symptoms at hand. Adjusting the cold start solenoid at this time would seem premature if you have a warm/hot start issue and you haven't checked the basics. And as mentioned earlier, pumping the throttle pedal does no good for an injected car and each car may have its inherent sweet spot for cold and warm starting.

If anything, this looks like a great bonding opportunity with your daughter =)

PS: As you did with checking the condition of the plugs, make note of the condition of the engine oil... has it thinned out? does it smell of gasoline? has the oil level increased? if yes to any of these questions, and it could be indicating a worn SPICA FI pump.

 

[180OUT]

Sadly the previous owner bought the car as a project and never got round to doing anything, which is why she sat for over two years. From records, it looks like the last time anyone drove or worked on her was about 6 years ago.

David, if you are mechanically inclined I suggest you contact Wes Ingram. He has published a very complete SPICA tuning manual which will provide you with step-by-step set-up and tuning information. Good luck. And keep us posted. Once properly adjusted and tuned, SPICA mechanical injections work quite well.

Ingram Enterprises, Inc. || Home Page

 

[Alfafannj]

Congrats on the Alfa. Your daughter has great taste in cars. While you are poking around on your own trying to get it going, you might also want to begin looking around for a vintage Alfa Romeo mechanic in your area. An experienced Alfa mechanic can spot things that might not be obvious to the untrained eye and save you a lot of time & frustration.

If it were my car, this is a short list of what I would have my mechanic do (or you are can do it yourself) to get it into top shape. This is a $3,500 bill - more or less. I know it might seem like a lot of money to throw at it, but these Alfa's are old and you want it to be reliable and not break down on you.

- Remove the SPICA injection and have it serviced on the bench. It might not need to be completely overhauled just cleaned up and tweaked.
-New plugs + wires + electronic distributor + coil
-Fresh engine oil
-New radiator + coolant
-New belts
-New Air + fuel filters
-New fuel pump + fuel hoses
-New brake fluid/rotors/pads
-New tires
-Fix any vacuum leaks
-New starter + battery
-New fuses

 

[David Heaslip]

Thank you all for your advice. The TA was spent so we're waiting for the refurbed unit to arrive from Wes. Once that's in place we can start working our way down the list.

One quick question though..... The steering wheel could use a bit of work that would be a lot easier to do on the bench. I've checked the forums and see that others have had problems getting the wheel off. I've tried everything I can think of, including a rented steering wheel puller, but I am worried about putting too much stress on the wheel and don't want to pull the threads out of the 6mm holes in the wheel. I'm also reluctant to tap it too hard with the rubber mallet. Heat seems impractical. Does anyone have any other suggestions?

 

[zedsn]

I have pulled the threads on one and gave up. I ended up buying a black leather steering wheel cover and installed it. Something you might want to consider as well. Sometimes those steering wheels are really on there!

 

[JockR]

My daughter just purchased a '78 Spider (injection) as her first car (we advised against it, but what can you do?).

On the pre-purchase test drive she fired right up time and again. Not she's in my driveway she only fires up occasionally. Normally when she's cold there's no problem, but when warm or at running temperature we go in to maybe will / maybe won't mode. I hear the external fuel pump running, and I've replaced the rubber connection on the pump in the tank (since that had a split in it). When I turn the key there is spark, and occasionally attempts to fire up, but she rarely goes the whole way and starts up. If I pull the plugs there is definitely fuel, and if I go too long I can smell it in the exhaust. When I come out the next morning she fires right up. I am making sure the battery is fully charged.

Is there a suggested order of checks that I should work my way through to try and find the problem?

Thanks,
David
Ashland, OR.

View attachment 1720907

Look up warm start problems

 

[65Sprint]

One quick question though..... The steering wheel could use a bit of work that would be a lot easier to do on the bench. I've checked the forums and see that others have had problems getting the wheel off. I've tried everything I can think of, including a rented steering wheel puller, but I am worried about putting too much stress on the wheel and don't want to pull the threads out of the 6mm holes in the wheel. I'm also reluctant to tap it too hard with the rubber mallet. Heat seems impractical. Does anyone have any other suggestions?

Apply plenty of your favorite penetrant to the wheel center/column shaft interface and make sure it runs down the keyway. Use your puller to put a load on the wheel and give the bolt in the center of the puller a few, sharp, raps with a hammer. Keep after it, snugging up the puller if needed and the wheel will break loose. Of course use some care to avoid damaging the threads at the end of the shaft.

 

[alfaloco]

Rich has got it right-- but thread the nut onto the end of the shaft a ways, before you smack it with the hammer. Not a rubber mallet, either-- a steel hammer, just a single sharp rap at a time.