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Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
Yes, this is not a typo, we are indeed talking Motronic ML4.1 and the Fiat-Lancia Tester (FLT).

Thanks to the generosity of Allan our Swedish BBer I have been able to try out a rare Marelli MA1B/GB module with the FLT which is specifically designed for the Bosch Motronic ML4.1 system used on series 1 164s (2.0 TS, 3.0 12v V6, Base, QV & S).


This module is also appropriate for the Spider 2.0 SZ, the 75 1.8—1.8E—2.0 TS— 3.0 V6, and the 33 IE Jetronic LE3.1/2 Motronic ML4.1 8V—16V. Don’t confuse this with Marelli MA4A which is the test module for 24v 164s with Bosch 1.7 Motronic systems, or Marelli MA10A for the 164 Q4 with Motronic 3.7 (By the way I can provide the eprom chips for any of the above)

Albeit that venerable BBer Goats has mentioned that he has found the FLT plus suite of 5 modules that Alfa North American offered of little use for 24v cars, the suspension module (M4B) is a notable exception, indispensable for diagnosing suspension faults on the Controlled Damping System (a.k.a electronic suspension) on both 12v and 24v cars (QV, S, Q & Q4). Since there doesn’t seem to be any documentation on the web for using the FLT + motronic ML4.1 on series 1 164s this post will attempt to rectify that. So what does the MA1B do, you may ask?

First of all (thank you Steve Alfisto), you need to literally dig out the T1 connector in front of the left foot of the passenger, under the carpet just forward the light under the glove box. Although you might be able to get your hand in there, in all likelihood you will need to remove first the passenger tunnel carpet (first slide back center console, remove two carpet screws + loosen left front seat rail); you see immediately the stack of ECUs behind the radio, just follow the motronic cable to the right, after about 12” from the ECU you’ll see T1. You can reroute it over the floor carpet and put everything back again. T1 has a nice little protective cap to keep dust out.

Once the FLT + module MA1B handshake you’ll be prompted to select “motronic” or “jetronic” and then answer the question “engine with lamda probe <OK>”; then it prompts you to turn the key to ”MAR” (not start), and the first series of tests will be available for the stationary car.

You will have two options, one, to manually check individual values or two, to see any stored errors.

the individual tests tell you (on my cold car) ...
1) current static voltage at the ecu : BATTERY V. 12,1 V​
(because the battery is located in the trunk there will always be a voltage drop at the ECU; the ECU needs a minimum of 10 volts to properly adjust engine speed when various electrical loads are applied)
2) current intake temperature in C°: INTAKE AIR TEMP + 9° C​
(on a cold engine air and coolant temperature will be almost the same, air temperature possibly a degree or two higher)
3) current engine coolant temperature in C°: ENGINE WATER TEMP +8° C​
(on a cold engine coolant temperate will be very close to ambient if not the same; this check helps to verify the ECU is getting correct information in order to adjust mixture for cold start; tip: a reading of -30°C automatically indicates an open circuit in the CTS wiring, >+99.9°C indicates a short circuit; as the engine is warming you will be able to observe the tipping point of the thermostat, the relationship of ECU-inferred coolant temperature and gauge reading, and the exact switching point of the low-speed fan. Be mindful that fan switch, located at top of radiator, is far removed from thermostat body on head and has a life of its own)
4) state of minimum throttle aperture switch: ON [pressing the accel pedal: OFF]​
(a very easy way to be sure TPS throttle position sensor is adjusted properly; improper adjustment or a failed TPS can result in slightly delayed acceleration, random stalling, increases speed on its own & CEL)
5) state of maximum throttle aperture switch: OFF​
(also known as WOT or wide open throttle; at WOT the O2 sensor which tell the ECU what the air/fuel should be is no longer in the loop, instead a predetermined fuel map is used)
6) status (on or off) of the anti-theft system: OFF​

At this point the FLT displays “The data which follow are valid only with ENGINE RUNNING”
7) BATTERY V. 13,9 V [changes as car idles or if you press the accel]​
(these readings show if the charging system is working within specs)
8) INTAKE AIR TEMP +9° C [it's still cold outside!]​
9) ENGINE WATER TEMP +28° C [engine is warming up!]]​
(reading will gradually rise as engine comes to full operating temperature ≈99°C, this is also useful to verify that the temperature gauge is accurate)
10) MINIMUM THROTTLE SWITCH OFF​
11) MAXIMUM THROTTLE SWITCH OFF​
12) ANTI-THEFT DEVICE OFF​
13) COMPRESSOR SWITCH DISENGAGED [ENGAGED when button pressed]​
14) CONDITIONER SWITCH DISENGAGED [ENGAGED when “auto” pressed]​
(this is useful for verifying if the compressor is being powered on or not)
15) ENGINE RPM 760 [in realtime]​
(essential for idle management; verifies correct idle rpm and ECU-adjusted idle when various external loads are activated; the signal originates from the crank position sensor, specifically the lack of 2 teeth on the phonic wheel is the reference signal for the ECU to determine parameters such as ignition advance, ignition timing, richness)
16) INJECTION TIME 3.32 sec [constantly changing value]​
(injector duration is nominally ≈3ms (as low as 1.5ms), in the event of the loss of an injector the ECU will increase the injection duration of the others from ≈3ms to as much as ≈11ms; injectors are controlled in parallel, where finely atomized fuel will briefly rest upon the back of a valve before being drawn into a cylinder.)
17) LAMBDA PROBE - REACHES CONDITIONS OF OPERATION​
(Lambda voltage typically ranges from .8 volts (≈rich) to .2 volts (≈lean); readings outside of this range will throw a CEL; the cause of a CEL—imperfect combustion—could be many things, air leak, bad CTS, etc, etc)
18) LOAD [=AIR FLOW VALVE] 2.35 MSEC [at idle, changing constantly, and if revved]​

A lot of this could be very valuable for troubleshooting (realtime engine temperature, fuel injection values, compressor operation, etc.)

I cannot comment at this time on the FLT’s “memorization of errors” as my car returned the message “no errors stored”. The depth of analysis might be very interesting.

Four additional tests: idle speed actuator, injectors, timing variator (T-spark only) and evaporation solenoid valve can be executed by entering the FLT's Function E (by pressing M).

https://www.alfabb.com/bb/forums/7199529-post33.html
 

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Goats has to qualify his (admittedly blunt) statement which was accurately reported above! In fact, the FLT tester is of little 'real world' use in normal troubleshooting, but it does have it's value in certain engine/wiring troubleshooting that is easier than digging out the ECU connector and checking continuity and ground isolation. Among the most useful are the tests to cycle thru the injectors, enable/disable the compressor, read the O2 sensor real time, RPM real time, engine temp, batt voltage , throttle position, etc etc -- most of which is also listed above for 12 V car. I wish there was a fuel pressure reading -- or command to run fuel pump (that should have been really easy) - or -- enable spark cycling (would be great for Dx coil arcs), would have been easy -- etc etc. There should have been better cruise control diagnostics, --

Anywho they could have done a much better job (in my humble opinion) for Motronic. As for auto trans, I think that module is useless. I;ve never tried ABS or suspension ==
 

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Great that you got it to work :)

This behaviour is what I would expect, compared to what I have seen on the 24V. Also, clearing error codes must be possible (as on 24V), since you can diagnose if there are anything stored.

I used it also for monitoring while driving, but since I tested Wilco's diagnostic SW for my Q4, the Marelli module has not been used much.
 

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I also have a Marelli Tester with the 24v cartridges but alas not the rare rare Marelli MA1B/GB module one you have for ML4.1 system.

I also have the Autoforce tester with ML4.1 interface box. the autoforce box does have a switch to ground fuel pump relay without having to remove relay and jumpering the 30/87 pin sockets.

However to use autoforce tester you have to remove side carpet, remove ABS computer and then remove motronic computer and disconnect harness from computer and plug in interface box cable harness to computer and engine harness to interface box. Real pain!

Sure would be nice to find another rare Marelli MA1B/GB module for my Marelli tester!
 

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cheap real time ECU testers

Anybody tried the cheap ELM 327 ODB2 tester ? there are USB and blutooth versions that allows for real time monitoring over android OS, using torque software and others. Have read that the older V1.4 USB version should work on 164's, but never heard from a true success story.

Already bought the fiat 3 pin to ODB2 cable adapter, but didn't purchase the ELM as I was waiting that somebody borrow me an unit first.

It would be very useful to install this and monitor things on real time. Also cheap, as they cost around 20 bucks on China stores, like dx.com. Fiat 3 pin to ODB2 is also cheap, around 10 bucks.
 

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Anybody tried the cheap ELM 327 ODB2 tester ? there are USB and blutooth versions that allows for real time monitoring over android OS, using torque software and others. Have read that the older V1.4 USB version should work on 164's, but never heard from a true success story.

Already bought the fiat 3 pin to ODB2 cable adapter, but didn't purchase the ELM as I was waiting that somebody borrow me an unit first.

It would be very useful to install this and monitor things on real time. Also cheap, as they cost around 20 bucks on China stores, like dx.com. Fiat 3 pin to ODB2 is also cheap, around 10 bucks.
OBD2 is not used in the 164 models:

http://www.alfabb.com/bb/forums/164-168-1991-1995/291658-module-descriptions-technical-bulletins.html

I suggest you look at the links Pinino has given, as that should bring you further.
 

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Testing Motronic ML4.1 with Marelli Tester and MA1B/GB cartridge

OK got MA1B/GB* cartridge in the mail today from Allan. Thanks again Allan for sending this.

*GB just means cartridge text is in English.

Now I started by testing BB1 my 164L first because I know it has a problem with O2 sensor system and throws code 1223 and check Engine Light comes on at stop lights.

Test aborted very quickly with lamba probe system error and FLT screen error message says to check Lamba probe wiring to pin 24 of ECU. That is the green covered wire that is connected to O2 sensor probe. So couldn't run any more tests on BB1. Will have to check out wiring from O2 bayonet connector to pin 24 at computor.

So I guess once I do some testing on green pin 24 wiring and black wire from it to newly installed O2 sensoer I will see if i can solve problem using this tester on BB1. Stay tuned.

So to see if tester was working and giving test results similiar to Pinino's in his post above I hooked it up to BB2 my 164S and got very similiar results. Remember I had driven car today so not super cold engine

1) current static voltage at the ecu : BATTERY V. 12,2 V
2) current intake temperature in C°: INTAKE AIR TEMP + 39° C
3) current engine coolant temperature in C°: ENGINE WATER TEMP +48° C
4) state of minimum throttle aperture switch: ON [pressing the accel pedal: OFF]
5) state of maximum throttle aperture switch: OFF (pressing to full open -WOT got ON on display
6) status (on or off) of the anti-theft system: OFF
At this point the FLT displays “The data which follow are valid only with ENGINE RUNNING”
7) BATTERY V. 13,9 V [changes as car idles or if you press the accel]
8) INTAKE AIR TEMP +23° C [it's still cold outside!]
9) ENGINE WATER TEMP +66° C [engine is warmingi up!]]
10) MINIMUM THROTTLE SWITCH ON
11) MAXIMUM THROTTLE SWITCH OFF
12) ANTI-THEFT DEVICE OFF
13) COMPRESSOR SWITCH DISENGAGED [ENGAGED when button pressed]
14) CONDITIONER SWITCH DISENGAGED [ENGAGED when “auto” pressed]
15) ENGINE RPM 760 [in realtime]
16) INJECTION TIME 3.07 sec [constantly changing valve]
17) LAMBDA PROBE - REACHES CONDITIONS OF OPERATION Once engine warmed up after 3 mintues or so fluctuating voltage 0.030 to 0.670
18) AIR FLOW VALVE ?? MILLESEC (He forgot write down his value]

18) My FLT screen said word LOAD on my screen and reading was about 2.35 to 2.50 MSEC at idle.

19) BATTERY VOLTAGE RUNNING ABOUT 14.3v with alternator on line.
 

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Discussion Starter #9
Great is hear you flunked the FLT! Of course, saying this knowing that you'll fix the problem most likely by tomorrow! So FLT specifically says to check pin 24?

Yep, "Load" [= air flow valve] that was the parameter that escaped me in my first post, now fixed.
 

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Looks as though I could actually use one of those modules right about now as I'm having cold start problems with Red. It doesn't want to idle and runs like crap until it gets warmed up. I'm thinking it must be the coolant sensor.
 

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Great is hear you flunked the FLT! Of course, saying this knowing that you'll fix the problem most likely by tomorrow! So FLT specifically says to check pin 24?

Yep, "Load" [= air flow valve] that was the parameter that escaped me in my first post, now fixed.
Not so fast he sez! I remove ABS and Engine ECUs so I could unhook connector at motronic engine ECU and check out continuity to pin 24 from O2 sensor connector and it read fine. So I try a different -117 computor and test now runs OK. Plug old computer back in test runs OK.

However engine still idles rough and CEL comes on (I hooked it back up as I had it disconnected to keep light out). FLT sez no codes in memory.

Once in awhile I get a couple different lamba sensor error messages so something still not right and once in awhle the pin 24 msg comes back.

It is a new Bosch O2 sensor I put in when I changed starter. I may put in another new sensor in the morning as cat to hot tonight and it is getting sleepy here.
 

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Thought I had it figured out but pin 24 lamba probe wire error keeps coming back and FLT system won't run. I cleared 1223 code using FLT and got system to run pretty good.

However, COMMA tonight on way to beach house could not get past O2 sensor error.

I did check out pin 24 wire again today with meter and checks good. I also changed O2 sensor again and installed another new one. I installed another 13957 O2 sensor and ordered another 13101 one. Either one is acceptable though.

Just for grins I also removed my nearly new Golden Lodge HL USA plugs and installed my new NGK BP7EIX Iridium sparkplugs.

I suspect I may have a pin 24 terminal issue in Multi-pin ECU connector at computer.
Swapping in 3 different motronic computors has not changed anything.

Car runs fine once warmed up and also when FLT worked it showed I had correct O2 sensor probe voltages at idle and at normal cruise speed.

Just for grins I also hooked up my auto force tester and ran both testers at the same time.

Couple times if I cleared 1223 O2 sensor code using FLT and then got 4444 all clear code the FLT would run entire test sequence.

I am driving car with both testers installed and setting oin the passenger seat.
 

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Love it! "shall we analys?" — so polite.

Could it be a bad O2 cable? Did you change that?
Yes I installed a new O2 sensor with correct cables not universal one that you have to splice cable onto.

I hope this pin 24 O2 sensor cable in harness is not bad as it is encased in fuel injection harness and runs from computer through firewall and all the way to under brake reservoir to met O2 sensor cables. It is the single wire one to probe. The O2 probe heater works fine so the Bosch 2-wire cable is OK.

If pin 24 truly bad I will have to take apart another spare harness and then route the new used cable some how into ****pit from engine bay or figure out how to get O2 sensor cable into ****pit first and the it would be easier to get the new green covered pin 24 sensor cable routed under the dash.

OBTW is it a EMI shielded cable with wire braid like the crank sensor cable.
 

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...OBTW is it a EMI shielded cable with wire braid like the crank sensor cable.
It is according to the wiring diagram I have (pg 597) In fact it looks like the shields for both cables are grounded to the CPS case. It's possible they may all three (pin 23, 24, 25) come off the ECU as a shielded triple.
 

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Installing a varible resistor pot on my 164 to aid cold starting/idling

It is according to the wiring diagram I have (pg 597) In fact it looks like the shields for both cables are grounded to the CPS case. It's possible they may all three (pin 23, 24, 25) come off the ECU as a shielded triple.
I don't know my IS from my IT it seems and that isn't all I did!
Thanks for answering my statement that got written as a question.

I meant to say "OBTW [it] is a EMI shielded cable with wire braid like the crank sensor cable". Instead of OBTW is it a EMI shielded cable with wire braid like the crank sensor cable. Seems like I GOT MY IS BEFORE MY IT!

I checked on that grounding couple weeks ago for another BB'er and I believe grounding point for the EMI wire braid shielding around both pin 25 yellow wire and pin 23 black wire for crank sensor and pin 24 green wire for O2 sensor cables goes only to ground at pin 23 along with black wire for crank sensor.

I fried a motonic engine computer this morning at cars and coffee playing around with connector trying to clear pin 24 issue by unplugging connector from computer with battery hooked up. I can tell you that is a no no!

My Bimmer and Morgan owner bud Bob drove me to my Alfa house to get another spare computer and car started right up.

My other issue is the rough running cold as it appears the coolant temp sensor in thermostat housing resistance is to low when cold to enrich fuel mixture. I replaced it with one that had about 2500 ohms resistance cold but still not enough should be about 3500- 4000 ohms on a cold day. I had a black one that cold has 5500 ohms but that to much and it gave me a 1800 RPM cold idle. All my cream colored and blue CTSensors ohm'ed out cold about 2500 ohms. Tested couple in ice cube water glass and they went on up towards 3500 ohms OK.

Next I am going to check for partially clogged fuel filter and do a fuel flow test.

I can enrich system with resistance pot on AutoForce tester and get car to idle smooth when engine cold.

I also have a RML Fb101 Performance Fuel Box which is a similiar variable resistance rotary pot which goes up to about 4850 ohms and give a real high idle cold if cranked full on like AutoForce tester does, too. I spliced it into coolant temp sensor brown wire that goes to pin 13 at ECU I spliced it in at connector to sensor in engine bay and ran wiring into ****pit at passenger door hinge area to be able to operate on cold starts until I get this car running right.

This BB1 has been a cold start chugging engine since I got it. My bud Chris previous owner had installed cleaned injectors and fuel filter. I replaced bad check valve on pump and did fuel pressure and flow test when I got the car as it was hard to start since bad check valve prevented any trapped fuel pressure in fuel rail after shutdown.

I guess I need to do fuel pressure and flow test before I change fuel filter and see what I get for a base line.
 

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Guys I would be careful in assuming the flt is telling you true. Although it is factory we all know that there are some things that are mid worded at best, lost in translation , or simply intended to operate a certain way but in reality the implementation fell short. Just a hint of caution before you tear your hair out!
 

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Guys I would be careful in assuming the flt is telling you true. Although it is factory we all know that there are some things that are mid worded at best, lost in translation , or simply intended to operate a certain way but in reality the implementation fell short. Just a hint of caution before you tear your hair out!
I agree but I fried engine computor by unhooking and rehooking connector with keep alive power still on it by not unhooking battery negative cable first my BAD!
 

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Steve, glad to hear that you are getting some use of the module, but tough luck with the ECU going bad! I have never had that issue unplugging the ECU's in my cars with battery still connected... but I guess I better think about that next time!

I can't explain why you are experiencing this with the O2 sensor, but it's a good thing that you can test on more than one car.

I don't know if anyone in the US is capable of copying modules, but if so, I hope you guys with the MA1B module can help others, if they have the Marelli tester and a car where it can be used :)
 

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OK did fuel pressure and fuel flow tests on 164L and checks good

I got 45 psi at fuel rail and got about 16 oz of fuel out the fuel return port on the fuel pressure regulator in 15 seconds which is very good flow.

With RML fuel enrichment pot installed in brown wire to Coolant Temp Sensor (CTS) I can get the cold engine to fast idle smooth with pot set at about 4000 ohms and then switch back over to just CTS when engine temp needle starts to rise about midway up the scale. RML Fb101 box has toggle switch position A for CTS and position B for varible resistor pot in box.

Had to run cable into glove box to hold RML box on dash as cable not long enough to get it any closer to driver's side of the car.

Fiat Lancia Tester (FLT) screen info states O2 sensor comes on line after about 3 minutes of engine running. Didn't time it but once it does then the FLT will start reading O2 sensor voltage.

Still having an issue sometimes with FLT aborting test sequence and giving Lambda sensor error message and when it does it will not display any engine readings

Not going to fry another computer by unhooking connector to clear code.

I guess I will try disconnecting battery next time to clear the 1223 code from memory and see if FLT will run then.
 

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