Alfa Romeo Forums banner

1 - 20 of 62 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
34 Posts
Discussion Starter #1
Hi

Does anybody know if any of these Ghia bodies designed by Boano have survived ?

I believe the car below is a Fiat 1500.






I heard there was a body which had been removed from a chassis similar to this in UK approx 8 yrs ago ,but went to Australia !

I have seen the Ghia-Aigle Delahaye coupe which has styling similarities which is in Switzerland.

Regards
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
537 Posts
According to Fornai they were made on 1500 D AND 1100 B Fiats and a few Lancia Aprilias and Alfa 6C 2500s. Above is Fiat 1500 C Cabriolet Gran Sport 1946.
and du to the scarcity of chassis they turned to France as well. A few Delage, 1 Talbot-Lago and a couple of Delahayes. But the most successful was the 6C 2500 that won 1949 Monte arlo Concours. Quoting from Fornai here.. I think there is one for sale right now? a Delahaye.. check anamera or hemmings etc.. Nik
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
218 Posts
Hi,

I believe the Delahayes with this body style are by the Italian company Ghia, not by the Swiss company Ghia-Aigle. There may have been more than one Delahaye like this -- I think the author Clive Cussler owned one of them.

Peter Zobian
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
34 Posts
Discussion Starter #6
Hi

I have seen the Ghia-Aigle Delahaye 135ms coupe which was in Switzerland.
Only one was built ,I think. It looks very similar to those attributed to Ghia Turin..

As far as I know Ghia-Aigle came into being in 1949 ,a joint effort by Boano of Ghia Turin & a wealthy business man De Filippi ,the latter supplying the funds & premises ,Boano the technical expertise..
In reality ,I think most of the Ghia-Aigle cars were almost completely built in Turin which would explain the similarities......And Boano was involved in both companies at that time ...
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4 Posts
Ghia

I have a car that I believe is the one you are referring to. From what I have been told.... the car came out of Argentina some years ago, to the UK, the owner in the UK was Colin Crabb. Colin sold it to Jorge Fernandez of Australia, however Jorge shipped the car to me here in Southern California. Later Jorge and I did a deal, where it is now mine.

What the car consists of is the following, a complete body, gauges, radiator, fuel tank, steering box and wheel, lights, windshield, seats and top.

It is missing, the complete engine, transmission, and rear and front axles.

There are no badges, or chassis plates, have not been able to find any body numbers.

I have just started working on what it is....
I have looked at the 235 Delahaye that was ex Don Williams, Blackhawk, this body has many of the same features.

It came with a set of knock-off wheels, that are 550x 16, so these don't match anything such as Delahaye, Talbot, Bugatti. I feel they are to large to be Fait or Alfa.

The drive shaft is quite small in diameter.

Colin Crabb, claimed that it was the past "Personal Property of Juan Peron"

Any help or additional information would be welcomed.

Many Thanks

Charles Bronson
Boulevard Motorcar Company.
Boulevard Motorcars
 

Attachments

·
Registered
Joined
·
537 Posts
Hi there mr Bronson.. Your cars headlights are too highly place in relation to the grille on the pictured cars. So it cannot be one them.. they exhibited 3 Fiats at least 1947 at Monte carlo and this cars headlights dont match.. so newer than that.. Fiat 1500 though, I agree.. Nik
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,678 Posts
Out of clarity ... confusion! Or vice-versa?

Dear Mr. Bronson,

Thank you for sharing images of your car. The body, anyway! I am not yet convinced that your car was bodied by Ghia even though it shares some obvious general characteristics. When it comes to the specifics, however, there are also some styling cues that it seems to lack, although that could be the result of certain effects created by a camera lens. However, even if not bodied by Ghia, I am still most curious to know who made it and when. Finding a chassis number would probably be a help.

Is there a chassis still under the body? Some photos you shared, evidently from prior to your acquisition, show wheels mounted and protruding under the body, so evidently it had suspension elements at some time when the body was in its present general condition? An obvious question is, Why are those suspension elements now missing?

I encourage you to take additional photos and share them. If you will photograph the front of the chassis where the front suspension attached, that might be helpful. If you will photograph the mounts where the engine and gearbox used to sit, that might help. If there is a spot on the firewall where an I.D. plate used to be, please take measurements of the screw holes. A photo might also be helpful?

Loose wheels with a car are not necessarily original to the car, particularly if the suspension is gone. If the wheels have alloy rims and Borrani markings, there is a chance that the rims will be dated on the back side. If so, what are those dates? What are the size markings, presumably on the outside portion of the wheels near the tire-tube valve stem hole? If there is an "RW" number stamped near the size markings, then the wheel almost certainly post-date the body's origins ... if it is not some latter-day attempt to confuse us!

More to follow.

John de Boer
The Italian Car Registry
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,678 Posts
Going back to the beginning ...

The initial posting for this thread showed us two photos. They may be of the same Fiat 1500 (6C) car?

The first image appeared in David Burgess Wise's book, "Ghia - Ford's Carrozzeria". The second appeared in Valerio Moretti's book on Ghia that was published by Automobilia.

Then, in posting #3, "pan68" shared a photo a photo that also appeared in Valerio Moretti's book, but Moretti showed us more of the image that show the photographer as being L. Bertazzini.

Moretti tells us that this general design was from the designer "Capalbi" who had also worked with the Farina brothers and says that some contemporary Stabilimenti Farina and Pinin Farina designs are somewhat similar as a result.

David Burgess Wise shows or tells us that there is a Fiat 1500 coupe/berlina in this style as well as Talbot Lago Record, a Fiat 1500 cabriolet 4 posti, a 6C2500 cabriolet built in a "limited series" plus Delahaye 235 and a Lancia Aprilia of 1950.

Here is a scan in .pdf format of an article that is not well known outside of Italy. It is a promotional piece that appeared in the magazine "Auto - Moto - Sport" of July, 1949. In the file, I have begun an alliterative translation that is not quite literal but which seeks to communicate the flavor of the writing rather than just words. If someone else can do better ... and will do so, I will be happy to not have to finish doing a translation into English.

In any case, there are no photos but there are a few illustrations, and he shows us a Fiat 1100 with a similar body, so perhaps Road and Track were correct after all? Still, the wheelbase on those cars seems a bit long to be 1100?

John de Boer
The Italian Car Registry
 

Attachments

·
Registered
Joined
·
4 Posts
More on Ghia

I have reviewed the file again on this car.

The Bill of Sale dated, 24th April 2003 from Colin Crabbe, says the following……….
Delage/ Ghia Body (no 114042)……

We have cleaned the car very well and inspected it hard.. I have not been able to find any numbers on the car, or a place were a plate would have been mounted. So I remain uncertain as to where this number came from.

Wheels, I am sure these wheels and tires where on the car from new. The reason is that the paint on the wheels matches the original paint on the car. Yes the wheels were resprayed silver at some point, but you can clearly see the original green paint. So again these are the original wheels from new.

Other items,
The knock off wheel nuts are French, not Italian.
The glass is marked “armourplate”
The gauges, are unique as well, they are American, by National Gauge and Eopt. CO Lacrosse WI” with a picture of an American Chief Indian on the face of each. They are for sure original to the car.

The door handles and window could be American as well.

As denote in the newer book by Jean-Paul Tissot, “Delahaye La belle Carrosserie Française” Page 295, is a repaint of an ad indicating with a similar car pictured that Ghia Aigle was a agent of both Delage and Delahaye.


The car is much more than just a body, The body is built as a Uni-body, with welded chassis frame members both front and aft. These remain intact. The Spring hangers are still in place.

The reason, you see the car on Wheels in the photos is that I took black iron pipe and stuck the wheels on it so that I could move the car around. Again the chassis is mostly intact.

an item that would help, is if someone could give me the measurements between the motor mounts on a 3 liter Delage. I know they don’t match a 135 Delahaye, nor a T-150 Talbot.

I plan to try and do some work, and check out measurements on Post-War Chryslers and Delages.


Again Many Thanks,

Charles Bronson
Boulevard Motorcars
 

Attachments

·
Registered
Joined
·
9,241 Posts
Hi

I have seen the Ghia-Aigle Delahaye 135ms coupe which was in Switzerland.
Only one was built ,I think. It looks very similar to those attributed to Ghia Turin..

As far as I know Ghia-Aigle came into being in 1949 ,a joint effort by Boano of Ghia Turin & a wealthy business man De Filippi ,the latter supplying the funds & premises ,Boano the technical expertise..
In reality ,I think most of the Ghia-Aigle cars were almost completely built in Turin which would explain the similarities......And Boano was involved in both companies at that time ...
FYI: According to this web site, Ghia-Aigle built two Delahaye 135ms coupes and one convertible.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,678 Posts
Thanks for the photos and added detail

Very interesting. All good stuff!

I think the Delage I saw at Fantasy Junction is too old to be truly informative but I will have a look at it in any case and take a measurement and perhaps a few other details. There might be some common design element such as motor mount points?

I think you'll find the American gauges to have "EQPT" (Equipment) as part of the name?

I have a French book or two on cars of that period that may tell me more when I get to visit my library, hopefully within the next couple of weeks or so. Unfortunate for the purpose of this study, my Delage and Delahaye files are a bit scant and what there is ... is focused more on the racing cars.

Ghia-Aigle is mentioned in the 1949 Italian piece that I scanned and posted above in .pdf format. Off the top of my head, I recall that it says that the Swiss outlet was formed chiefly for customs (taxation) advantages. Materials and partially completed work were sent there from Torino for completion and sale elsewhere. The promotional talk indicated that Italian technical "masters" oversaw a 50-50 mix of Italian and Swiss "master" workers. But, (my own observation and opinion) sometimes the Ghia-Aigle efforts were just a bit "off" in their finished lines compared to Ghia-Torino. In a way, that makes sense as to a more likely origin for the body you have. Please don't get me wrong. I like it, but it does not have the admittedly overdone yet still subtle flair of the Ghia-Torino cars that I am finding in period photos. I have begun to prepare a list.

More to follow I am sure.

John de Boer
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
9,241 Posts
Strange to have early American gauges on a French car. Here is what I found on the maker of the gauges:

WPT: Wisconsin Hometown Stories: LaCrosse
I think these instruments create an interesting sideline of the car's history -- a sideline that also raises some questions:

According to this article (and other web pages), Boyce Moto-Meter Co. bought National Gauge and Equipment Co. in 1926.

Interestingly, a 1955 article in the Michigan Law Review about “The Patent-Antitrust Problem” and some other law suits make reference to a 1929 decision in a patent and/or licensing lawsuit involving both companies: Moto Meter Co. v. National Gauge & Equipment Co., D.Del., 31 F.2d 994, 996 (1929) – which would have been 3 years after the merger.

Also in 1929, under the direction of Royce G. Martin (who later became chairman of Autolite), Safe-T-Stat Co bought Moto Meter (see this article). It is unclear whether an investment syndicate came together to finance the buyout or to safe the company after the stock crash, but that such a syndicate existed is documented in this PDF file. Either way, the resulting company was renamed to Moto-Meter Gauge and Equipment Company. In 1934, during the depression, Electric Autolite and Moto-Meter Gauge and Equipment Company merged and became Autolite.

From this corporate history, I get the impression that the “National Gauge” brand disappeared between 1926 and 1934. Therefore, why would instruments with this brand appear in a car from the 1946-1949 time frame? Maybe because it was all that was available in the post WWII world? There's probably never going to be an answer to these questions, but I think the existence of these gauges makes for an interesting discussion.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,678 Posts
Welcome ...

Welcome to the newly formed "Registry of the Production and History of the National Gauge and Equipment Co." (a.k.a "Registry of the National Gauge and Eqpt. Co.") Please write c/o The Italian Car Registry. Seems a bit odd, no?

Ain't it (Is it not) interesting how we can be led in different directions while studying one car? It would probably be much easier to generalize about a large cross-section of mass-produced cars. Perhaps we should study .... Chevrolet? Or Toyota?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
9,241 Posts
Ain't it (Is it not) interesting how we can be led in different directions while studying one car?
Indeed it is! The point I was trying to make in my post may have gotten lost: The gauges may just have been "lying around somewhere" and probably won't tell us much about design or fabrication of the car.
 
1 - 20 of 62 Posts
Top