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Finally 205-103

DSC04747.jpg

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So What do we think? I put my money on 205-102 as having the rear end that is both much straighter, up rite and least curved.

Kind of makes sense given that 205-101 is said to have raced in the 1950 with the aero extensions.

Pls note that the 102 has undergone heavy modifications, and thus its the overall spacial relationship that matters, not the finish...

rgds

elad
 

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Finally 205-103

View attachment 139057

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So What do we think? I put my money on 205-102 as having the rear end that is both much straighter, up rite and least curved.

Kind of makes sense given that 205-101 is said to have raced in the 1950 with the aero extensions.

Pls note that the 102 has undergone heavy modifications, and thus its the overall spacial relationship that matters, not the finish...

rgds

elad

I would tend to agree it is 205-102 before all the hideous modifications...and 205-101 is said to have had the holes for the noise and tail extensions. 205-103 looks pretty much like 205-101 to me, except the area from the rear window back looks longer and the "bump" over the front wheel archs doesn't look as tall....of course this could just be the angle the photos were taken at...
 

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The first (old) photo shows a car with an entirely different rear end line of the door shape. Any ideas why?
Regards
 

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The first (old) photo shows a car with an entirely different rear end line of the door shape. Any ideas why?
Regards
I agree that the back edge of the door of the 1950 MM car (race #630) appears to have an angle in it about half way up, and that on 205-101, 102, and 103 the rear edge of the door appears to be straight up and down. This could have been a modification of 102 (the green car) which obviously has been bastardized, but we don't know how many Abarth 205s were actually built. My best guess is that the 1950MM car pictured is 102...but I have NO proof...
 

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I just browsed through one of my Cisitalia book and there is a Pic of , it states, a Cisitalia 202 modified for racing, by Carlo Abarth.. and has a Nose cone.... The Cisi 204 went on to ecome the Abarth 205 for sure but was the coned car a Cisi 202 modified?? This is from the Cisitalia book by Nino Balestra:
The experiment conducted by Carlo Abarth was also interesting. He worked energetically on a Cisitalia 202 almost entirely on the exterior and on streamlining details. The roof of the car was lowered by about 10 cm, and the rear plexiglass window was made much wider. The sides were drawn in , that is flattened until they were practically in line with the wheels. Finally two fairing were made, real shells with a caracteristic shape, and fixed with small bolts onto the rear and front of the car. These fairings lent a certain force to the whole, but , above all, let this Cisitalia 202, called the Abarth 205 now,.... achieve a maximum speed gain of more than 20 km/h. Guido Scagliarini drove it to first place in the 1950 3 ore di Monza"

Now Scagliarini is alive and well near Rimini and I intend to go see him soon.. I think he can clear everything up.. OOPS hE IS 95 Now!
 

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I agree that the back edge of the door of the 1950 MM car (race #630) appears to have an angle in it about half way up, and that on 205-101, 102, and 103 the rear edge of the door appears to be straight up and down. This could have been a modification of 102 (the green car) which obviously has been bastardized, but we don't know how many Abarth 205s were actually built. My best guess is that the 1950MM car pictured is 102...but I have NO proof...
From a post of mine on page 2 of this thread:

One can distinguish my car from the other two in most pictures by two specific traits: the doors are straight cut rather then kinked as they are on 101/102, there is an additional trim piece on 103 on the B pillar, the two other cars don't have these features.

The "kink" in the door line are features that are on 101 and 102. 103 did not have that (judging in period pictures as well as present).

pls look at the picture below, the kink on 101 is as clear as anything:

 

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I just browsed through one of my Cisitalia book and there is a Pic of , it states, a Cisitalia 202 modified for racing, by Carlo Abarth.. and has a Nose cone.... The Cisi 204 went on to ecome the Abarth 205 for sure but was the coned car a Cisi 202 modified??
Not sure i agree.
The Cisi 202 was a fine car, but all engine blocks in 101 and 103 have a 204 stamping, not a 202 stamping. Cisi had tubular chassis, the 205 has platform chassis. the car in picture is 101 with the 1950 MM nose and back cone.
I believe a car having a different body, whole different style chassis construction, and not sharing the engine block of teh other car, cannot and should not be called a modification. They did -possibly- share the same displacement...

elad
 

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From my other Cisi book come some other interesting facts.. Mario Simoni is very clear the the Mille miglia car with the nose cone is the tubular chassis car. He calls it the Abarth 1100/204 also called the 204A. Made in 2 examples
1950 the platformed chassied 205 came with a 221 cm wheelbase the 204A had 210 cm. This was made in 3-4 examples.... The engine bored out to 1188 cc
Lenght was 350 cm, height 125 cm and width 142 cm
 

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Car 553 is MM car 1950 204A car driven by Scagliarini-Maffiodo. Car 630 another car in Brescia-Roma-Brescia, Scagliarini-Garrone. Car show pic from Turin 5/4 1951 appears to by your car looking at the paint..

Abarth book by Greggio stand for these facts.. not me.. ;-)

Nik
 

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It may just be the angle of the photos, but the bare aluminum car with #8 does NOT appear to be the same car as the bare aluminum one with the #630 to me. It appears to be much shorter, and as such, might be a 204A, as the 204 had a shorter W/B than the 205. I am aware to all the references of a 204A coupe, but didn't remember the story of it being based on a modified 202. I still think 205-101 is the 1950 MM car with the added aerodynamic nose and tail, race number 533, the 1950MM car with race number 630 is 205-102, and that Elad's car is 205-103. I believe the car in the top photo of post #47 is 205-101 without the aerodynamic pieces attached, and the car in the top photo in post #51 is 205-103. Of course, I could be mistaken...
 

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From a post of mine on page 2 of this thread:

One can distinguish my car from the other two in most pictures by two specific traits: the doors are straight cut rather then kinked as they are on 101/102, there is an additional trim piece on 103 on the B pillar, the two other cars don't have these features.

The "kink" in the door line are features that are on 101 and 102. 103 did not have that (judging in period pictures as well as present).

pls look at the picture below, the kink on 101 is as clear as anything:


Really hard to tell from the photo, but the car with the aerodynamic nose and tail seems to have a different door line than the car in this photo to me...
 

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Here is a comment from the Abarthisti group I just recieved by e-mail in regard to the photo in my post #41...


"Berlinetta '204A'" is the description given to that photo by the AbarthPress Office. While 204A is generally regarded as the internal name by which these carswere known - the 'A' refering to the fact that Abarth had modified thesecars significantly over the original 204 - the term is still correct in thiscase.

This page (below) might prove an interesting read: 1950 Abarth 205 Vignale Berlinetta - Images, Specifications and Information Regards,-

Alex Kefford
Abarthisti - Abarth enthusiasts, owners, and aficionados
[email protected]
 

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This is a picture I found on the web, This is 102 (my take), look how much more flat and less curved the whole front complex of the car... And the dead giveaway = the grill had only 4 slants!! vs. The 5 on 101 as well as 103. Worth noting, the picture in our original discussion, did had a 5 slant grill and no hood vents, thus we are probably looking at 103 (aside from the unique paint, as discussed) ===> case solved!



Thoughts?

 

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This is a picture I found on the web, This is 102 (my take), look how much more flat and less curved the whole front complex of the car... And the dead giveaway = the grill had only 4 slants!! vs. The 5 on 101 as well as 103. Worth noting, the picture in our original discussion, did had a 5 slant grill and no hood vents, thus we are probably looking at 103 (aside from the unique paint, as discussed) ===> case solved!



Thoughts?


I agree it's 102, but what about the car that is bare metal with the number 8 in post #51? It looks much shorter to me...

We alos still don't know for certain if there were any 204 coupes, nor do we know how many 205s were made....
 

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I agree it's 102, but what about the car that is bare metal with the number 8 in post #51? It looks much shorter to me...

We alos still don't know for certain if there were any 204 coupes, nor do we know how many 205s were made....

Im not sure I see number 8 as much shorter then number 630... look at post 41. If someone had AUTOCAD they could measure certain points to compare. Anyone?
Somehow, we can only find pictures with 3 distinct cars from the original period, and we have 3 distinct cars today. We can almost certainly trace the cars to the period pictures. Yes, i agree no certain confirmation exists that tells us that 630 and 8 are the same, but having a different front then 101 and 102, and seeing the profile (including the clearly blanked off fog lights in both 630 and #8 guise) leads me to believe unless otherwise shown, that 630 and 8 are the same. what is not 100% definite is that 102 and this car are one of the same. This, unfortunately, given the modifications on the present day 205-102 will be tough to ascertain. But having two cars, with blanked off fog lights, a 4 piece grill, raced by Cortese in bare metal etc.. is a bit too much to be a coincidence. Again not 100%, but just good solid logic.

With regards to the 204 (tubular chassis) no proof has been shown. Eager to see some trace of something that can substantiate what could be a marketing gimmick.

Back to our picture at the start of the MM, seems that now we know that it cant be 101, it is not 102 (per grill) and most likely would be 103 due to color, and grill construction. I say most likely, because we can never be sure, as none of us were in the 1951 MM, but its a pretty good chance this is correct.

rgds
 

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Scott Emsey's 205-101 has a 2210 w/b. I don't know about the green car 205-102 or Elad's 205-103, nor the Fiat/103 Ghia car that I think McNamara owns.
 
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