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The best F1 driver past present and future, it won't be the same following grand prix racing without him. Il Commendatore would have been proud to see him bring Ferrari to the top. Thanks for the memories.
 

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The past couple days I've been wondering who will be the next Shumacher or better yet, will there be anyone as good? The same was said about Fangio, so time will tell...
 

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Good riddance to poor sportsmanship! He's a jerk, purposefully crashed others to win, stepped on anyone and everything in his way, just to be "champion"?!
I hope he disappears forever. Can he drive? Yes. Is he an ***? Yes. i hope the door hits him when it slams shut, F1 is a joke anymore anyway.
 

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My business partner (another polack) says that there is some polishman who was just moved up from test driving this season and has alot of natural potential. I don't know too much about him, but I have to doubt he has the naural talent of Shumacher. Maybe in a few years. Time will tell.

Jay
 

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Spoken like a true no fan

Heh GTV when was the last time you WENT to a race ? Did you ever stand at a corner and observe these guys at the office ? Well, then you would've noticed. That guy was no jerk...in the end he was far better for the sport, with or without a monkey on his back. Michael and Ferrari needed each other to shine like the sun, and they lit up the sky. Kudos to him at Brazil. His last drive for Ferrari was a beauty, a driving lesson for lesser men who fill the seats of modern day F1 cars. He fought from the first corner of the first lap until the last. Striding up to his last teammate who himself had just won his home race, I saw Schumacher in a special light, and wholely genuine. Meister well done!
 

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Last time I went to a GP was June and I agree with 84GTV6. I've seen Schumacher race in person over a dozen times. For starters, the Old Man wouldn't have let him pick his teammates over the years. I don't think he was good for the sport. He was very good for Max and Bernie's wallets but I think they allowed him to set a lot of precedents that are not good for the sport at all. The thing that always shocked me was that the other drivers let him get away with so much. I figure it must be a European cultural thing - in the US somebody would've put him into the wall. I think that's why the two guys Michael ever seemed to fear - Villenueve and Montoya - had heavy backgrounds in US racing. They were the guys that would just hang in rather than dodging him when he tried to hack them. Good riddance.

Actually I think a good (if blasphemous) argument could be made that had Il Commendatore been in charge, they would not have won as many races as they did the last ten years.

The Pole is Robert Kubica driving for BMW. And yes - he is something special. I'm not sure I've ever seen a more spectacular display of driving talent than what he put on in Friday practice in Montreal. Maybe Senna in the Lotus in Mexico City or perhaps Jean Alesi's qualifying run his first year for Ferrari in Phoenix. The dude was visibly faster than everyone else into the hairpin. Braking WAY later than anyone else, brake discs glowing way brighter than anyone else. He was fastest in both sessions and by a whole 2 seconds in the morning. Just 21 and definitely a guy to watch next year.

The guys at Autosport reckon that his replacement as BMW test driver, teenager Sebastien Vettel, is something special as well. Time will tell.
 

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Just a reminder, there is a 2 time world champion still in the field that won both his championships earlier than anyone has ever won one...

Schumacher was supposed to be the rain master - but if you remember Hungary, that kid that everyone seems to ignore, what's his name, the world champ, went from 15 to 1st in about 3 laps in the rain... passing said rain master on the outside (a habit of his, if you remember 2005 Japan). Would have won it as well if the mechanics remembered to tighten his wheels after the pit stop...

Anyway, with Alosno in the field and Lewis Hamilton coming in (Hamilton and Kubica were teammates 2 years ago in F3 - it was Hamilton's rookie year there and he outdrove Kubica (which was on his 2nd year) - I think we still have some real exciting people to watch...
 

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rloewy said:
Just a reminder, there is a 2 time world champion still in the field that won both his championships earlier than anyone has ever won one...

:D Jejeje It is very common in the italians cars forum.

If we are talking about young drivers, remember that Alonso is only 25 years old (12.5 years less than MS).

And the best present F1 driver is the driver who wins the championship. And Alonso has done it this year and the past 2005 with MS in the track.

Some statistics:

_____________________MS_________________________F. Alonso
Birth date _______3rd January 1969___________________ 29th July 1981
Age 20 y/o______1989 German Formula 3, 2nd___________2001 F1 W. Champ., 0 points (Minardi)
Age 21 y/o______1990 German Formula 3, 1st____________2002 Renault Test driver
Age 22 y/o______1991 F1 W. Champ., 0 points___________2003 F1 W. Champ., 6th, 55 points
Age 23 y/o______1992 F1 W. Champ., 3th, 53 points_______2004 F1 W. Champ., 4th, 59 points
Age 24 y/o______1993 F1 W. Champ., 4th, 52 points_______2005 F1 W. Champ., 1st, 133 points
Age 25 y/o______1994 F1 W. Champ., 1st, 92 points_______2006 F1 W. Champ., 1st, 134 points


First title (karting national champ.) 1984 (MS,15 y/o)___1993 (Alonso, 12 y/o) (at 7 years, he won a regional title)

More records:

Younger F1 World championship
  • Fernando Alonso (ESP): 24 years, 57 days
  • Emerson Fittipaldi (BRA): 25 years, 262 days
Youngers drivers who finished a F1 GP:
  • Fernando Alonso (19 years, 217 days)
  • Chris Amon (19 years, 345 days)
Younger drivers in a F1 Podium:
  • Fernando Alonso (21 years, 237 days) Malasia 2003
  • Robert Kubica (POL): (21 years, 273 days) Italia 2006
  • Elio de Angelis (21 years, 307 days) (Brasil 1980)
Younger drivers who Won a F1 GP:
  • Fernado Alonso (22 years, 26 days) Hungary 2003
  • Bruce McLaren (NZL): (22 years, 104 dias) USA 1959
Younger fastest lap
  • Nico Rosberg ?
  • Fernado Alonso (21 years, 321 days) Canada 2003
  • Bruce McLaren (21 years, 322 dias) UK 1959
Younger drivers who get the pole position in a F1 GP
  • Fernado Alonso (21 years, 237 days) Malasia 2003
  • Rubens Barrichello (22 years, 96 days) Belgium 1993
 

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Discussion Starter #9 (Edited)
I couldn't care less that Mr. crybaby has won the WDC. With 7 world titles MSC gets my vote for the driver in F1 with the most talent and that's the way he will go out in his retirement. And his last final race in Brazil just proves my point (with both his talent and his sportmanship): by cranking out the fastest lap at 1:12.164 and by passing both Fisi (who previously took him out and had to start at the back of the field) and passing Kimi (the "young" driver who is filling his spot). If Alonso racks up another 6 WDC wins in his career (doubtful) then I'll change my mind.

And as far as Mr. Alonso being such a prodigy, his biggest mistake will be going to Mclaren. I predict his golden years are already up unless Mclaren can somehow cure their reliability problems and I don't foresee a miracle like Schumacher performed when he joined Ferrari.

Was MSC rutheless on the track? absolutely. Did he win "at all costs", maybe, but then again plenty of other drivers pulled the same stunts and were just as agressive. Will any other driver break the records that MSC managed in the near future, I really doubt it. Until then MSC rules.
 

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Discussion Starter #10
Oh by the way, please tell me that you have some other statistics besides Alonso's age to prove that he's a better driver that MSC and whether or not he won his carting championship at 12 and not 15 like MSC. Please. There are no extra points given out for winning championships based on age.

Chime in on this post in five years and give me an update on Alonso's stats. Until then MSC's records currently stand as the best f1 driver in the sport period.
 

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Statistics only say who win.

And the driver who arrives first to the end of the race is the driver who wins. To arrive first means to go faster. It is very simple.

These data show that if you want to compare records you have to consider the age.

Fernando Alonso has a lot of time if he want.

2006 + 12 = 2018: At 2019 we´ll compare Alonso vs MS total records.

Statistics only say who win.

And the driver who arrives first to the end of the race is the driver who wins. To arrive first means to go faster. It is very simple.

These data show that if you want to compare records you have to consider the age.

Fernando Alonso has a lot of time if he want.

2006 + 12 = 2018: At 2019 we´ll compare Alonso vs MS total records.

Also, there are no extra points given out for being a Ferrari driver (sometimes, penaltys to be “unlawful”) .
 

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73alfetta said:
Oh by the way, please tell me that you have some other statistics besides Alonso's age to prove that he's a better driver that MSC and whether or not he won his carting championship at 12 and not 15 like MSC. Please. There are no extra points given out for winning championships based on age.

Chime in on this post in five years and give me an update on Alonso's stats. Until then MSC's records currently stand as the best f1 driver in the sport period.
Age has nothing to do with it. Now that we know who the youngest world champion was, who was the oldest? Fangio. He didn't win his first one till he was 40, and he won FOUR MORE after that. It's about skill and being in the right team with the right car, and if you get the right combination over a period of years, you have dominance. That hasn't changed since Alfa and Nuvolari and Auto Union/Mercedes teams of Nazi Germany.

How did Schumacher make anything any more boring? The most boring years for me were the endless McLaren-Honda years followed closely by the endless Williams-Renault years. I am a Tifosi, so I suppose I enjoyed Ferrari dominance rather than other teams dominance, so watching Ferrari win every year was OK. However, it is inaccurate to suggest that Ferrari and Schumacher suddenly created the "dominant team" era. That is what everybody strives for, and that is what we had in F1 up to the Climax and Cosworth DFV eras, and that is what restarted with the McLaren Porches in the '80s (after the 1.5ltr Turbos ran the Cosworth DFV off the track).

And how is Schumacher less "sporting" than others? Don't forget the Senna/Prost feud and other, smaller examples of "unsportsmanlike" conduct. Also, all teams have team orders, Ferrari was just more open with theirs and in position to bring their orders to bear when they have two guys who can only hurt each other by taking top points away from one another.

Finally, the only reason Enzo Ferrari would not have let this era happen the way it did (with Schu as a clear #1) is if his own ego prevented him from letting Schu make the Scuderia his personal team for 11 years. What do you think Enzo would have said if you said to him "let Schumacher control the team, and we'll win you 11 championships in 11 years"? Ferrari has never been that successful, and may never be again. The past 11 years were probably Enzo's fantasy dream for his entire life...total dominance over a long period of racing time.
 

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GV: a tad surprised to hear ah yes, something special because youthful exuberance is on display (late brake dayglow)! I'll chime with 73alfetta.. get back to me on Kubica, Raikkonen, Hamilton, Massa, Button, Vettel, Alonso, Wurtz, Sato... anyways, time DID tell and his name was Gilles Villenueve.
A couple of years ago, Atlas F1 "held court" on the subject of Villenueve Sr and he came away with distinction. I for one could not have agreed more. I love what was spoken about him by his compatriots, and loved what I saw when he came into view on a racetrack. EVERYONE loved Gilles.
 

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GV: a tad surprised to hear ah yes, something special because youthful exuberance is on display (late brake dayglow)! I'll chime with 73alfetta.. get back to me on Kubica, Raikkonen, Hamilton, Massa, Button, Vettel, Alonso, Wurtz, Sato... anyways, time DID tell and his name was Gilles Villenueve.
A couple of years ago, Atlas F1 "held court" on the subject of Villenueve Sr and he came away with distinction. I for one could not have agreed more. I love what was spoken about him by his compatriots, and loved what I saw when he came into view on a racetrack. EVERYONE loved Gilles.
 

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1976 said:
GV: a tad surprised to hear ah yes, something special because youthful exuberance is on display (late brake dayglow)! I'll chime with 73alfetta.. get back to me on Kubica, Raikkonen, Hamilton, Massa, Button, Vettel, Alonso, Wurtz, Sato... anyways, time DID tell and his name was Gilles Villenueve.
A couple of years ago, Atlas F1 "held court" on the subject of Villenueve Sr and he came away with distinction. I for one could not have agreed more. I love what was spoken about him by his compatriots, and loved what I saw when he came into view on a racetrack. EVERYONE loved Gilles.
True. Including Enzo, who said he thought of him like a son.
 

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73alfetta said:
Chime in on this post in five years and give me an update on Alonso's stats. Until then MSC's records currently stand as the best f1 driver in the sport period.
MS was not the best driver on the track in the last year despite having the fastest car for the 2nd half of it. He made a lot more mistakes than Alonso and Alonso won the title fair and square.

Alonso did not hit a wall this year. (MS did in Australia).
Alonso had 2 mechanical failures that did not allow him to finish a race, MS had only 1.
Alonso did not bang wheels with 2 drivers that passed him after he cut the chicane (and this lead to MS dropping from 3rd to 9th -later moved to 8th because Kubica was disqualified)
Alonso did not "lose it" in qualifying trying to block the track.

While Michael has an impressive record - he did not win the last 2 championships and even if you say he did not have the car in 2005 so we can not tell if he was better than Alonso or not that year - he most certainly made a lot more mistakes than Alonso and failed to win the championship in a car that was very close in pace most of the year and clearly faster at the end of it.

Anyway, my gut feeling is that Alonso is going to do a lot better in the McLaren next year than Kimi did this year. I am not sure he can challenge for the championship - but I will be surprised if he will not in 2-3 years.
 

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I find it hard to compare Alonso and Schumacher yet.

Alonso won last year with a car that clearly dominated the Ferrari (so did the McLaren, which likely would have given Kimi the championship if the McLaren wasn't held together with chewing gum). He won this year in a fair fight, with a car that was clearly faster than the Ferrari during the first quarter of the season and clearly slower (though not by much) than the Ferrari during the last quarter of the season. He made fewer mistakes and lapses of judgment than Michael, and that won him the championship. In fact, it shouldn't have been as close as it was (that steward's penalty for Alonso blocking Felipe was rediculous).

So Alonso bested Schu in 2006. How does that make him better than Schu? Mika won two worlds championships with Schu on the track in head-to-head battles, but I don't see his name getting mentioned as a better driver. Villeneuve won in '97 in a head-to-head with Schu, but no one says he's better.

Schumacher currently holds ALL the records in F1...ALL of them. More championships than Fangio, Brabham, Clark, Stewart, Piquet, Lauda, Prost, Senna, Nuvolari, Ascari (and some of them put together). More poles, more fastest laps, more laps led, etc., etc. Granted, deaths and shorter seasons skew some of these results, but not all of them and not all of them in favor of the other greats, and we are talking about the greatest racing drivers that ever lived.

I can hardly put Alonso in that group yet, just like I don't put a lot of other really great champions (like Mika, Mansell, the Hills (all three of them), Andretti, Schekter, Hulme, Fittipaldi and the rest) in that group. Unfortunately, some never had the chance to get grouped (Gilles, Ronny Peterson, Francois Cevert, etc.).

If he goes to McLaren after his first two worlds championships, takes two years to get the team to "gel" and then rolls off 5 more worlds championships, then maybe he's the best because he beat Schumacher head-to-head in 2006. If he comes close, he'll still be a "great" in my mind. Otherwise, he's a great driver, a multiple world champion and better than a lot of truly great drivers, but not in the elite group in my mind.
 

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othercarsaford said:
I find it hard to compare Alonso and Schumacher yet.
Fair enough. I am sure it was hard for anyone to compare Schumacher to Senna before his death. It should however be remembered that Schumacher did not take a single pole in his career until after Senna's death. All I am saying is that Alonso was clearly better this year than Schumacher and has the potential to be in that very rare group that Schumacher clearly occupies. Time will tell.

othercarsaford said:
So Alonso bested Schu in 2006. How does that make him better than Schu?
In this year it did. Based on record he did so in 2005, just as on record Michael was better than him in the previous years. (Can we really say for sure that Michael got more from the 2003 Ferrari than Alonso did of the 2003 Renault?)

We can not fairly compare drivers across eras - there is no way to say if Michael could hack it against Tazio in the 30s and there is no way to tell if Tazio could even make it into the F1 grid in an era of traction control, aerodynamic rules etc...

The only comparison that makes some kind of sense is in 2006 when both drivers have been in one of the 2 fastest cars and fought against each other. Given that Michael is at the end of his career and Alonso is clearly just growing into his own - there is again no way to compare them in the sense of "who was a better driver" - but we can say for sure that in 2006 Alonso drove better (and I suspect that this is why Michael decided to retire instead of having another year - he is not stupid).


othercarsaford said:
Mika won two worlds championships with Schu on the track in head-to-head battles, but I don't see his name getting mentioned as a better driver. Villeneuve won in '97 in a head-to-head with Schu, but no one says he's better.
Because in both cases they had a clearly superior car to what Michael was driving at the time (for sure in 1998, less so in 1999 for Mika - and obviously not even in the same ballpark in 1997).

othercarsaford said:
Schumacher currently holds ALL the records in F1...ALL of them.
Except than win percentages where Fangio and Clark are better and starting position average where Senna is better.

othercarsaford said:
I can hardly put Alonso in that group yet, just like I don't put a lot of other really great champions (like Mika, Mansell, the Hills (all three of them), Andretti, Schekter, Hulme, Fittipaldi and the rest) in that group.
Fair enough. I have no problems with that.

othercarsaford said:
If he goes to McLaren after his first two worlds championships, takes two years to get the team to "gel" and then rolls off 5 more worlds championships, then maybe he's the best because he beat Schumacher head-to-head in 2006. If he comes close, he'll still be a "great" in my mind. Otherwise, he's a great driver, a multiple world champion and better than a lot of truly great drivers, but not in the elite group in my mind.
I guess we differ here - because I do not think that all of Schumacher's championships are as valid as others - so in my mind - Alonso does not need to win 5 more championships to be considered as maybe an equal. I have no doubts (and Schumacher himself said so) that Schumacher would not be a 7 times WDC if Senna did not die in 1994. To my mind Schumacher's '94 title is not kosher against Hill and I doubt he would have even be in a position to do what he did to Hill if Senna was able to finish 1994. Given that the Williams was the best of one of the best cars of 1994 to 1997 - and Senna had a long term contract with Williams - the picture could be very different.

This does not take away from Schumacher's record - it just puts the record in question. Let's face it - if Schumacher was to drive in the Clark era, for example, and had gone into a competitor sidepod as happened in 1994 - he would probably be dead and maybe a 1 time WDC... - so the record, while impressive, is not a valid reflection, in my mind.

I have no problems saying that after Senna's death Schumacher was clearly the class of the field until possibly 2005, and certainly not in 2006.

Finally, an interesting tid-bit - before his death Fangio was asked who he thought was the best F1 driver he ever saw - he said it was Clark... (He died at the start of the Schumacher era - so he did get to see him a bit).
 

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I think I can agree with most of what you said, but I just can't allow myself to compare Alonso and Schumacher in terms of career greatness after one year.

You raise an interesting point that I don't think I ever really thought about. I have always thought that Michael was a genius in team building, testing and communicating with his engineers, but not necessarily the fastest driver. I thought Senna was faster till he died, then Mika always seemed to be faster lap-to-lap when he needed to be (although he had better cars) and now Kimi and Alonso. The interesting thing is how Senna (through death) and Mika (through what I thought was "early retirement") left the top tier for Michael to sort of occupy alone until the next challenger arose. Obviously, this is all what-if, but I must agree with you that if Senna had not been killed and raced for 3-5 more years, and if Mika had not retired but stayed around for 3-5 more years, Michael's record likely would be alot different.

It's unfair, though, to then draw the conclusion that he is not one of the best if not the best, because there were always other drivers that were faster but either died or retired and, thus, didn't knock off the great. That was certainly true of Fangio (as Ascari died, Moss always drove for Rob Walker, etc.), Clark (Moss again, Hawthorne's and Von Trips' deaths, Stewart at BRM, etc.), and maybe others. Maybe that is one of the reasons the greats become the greats, they make good career decisions (look at how well Fangio did that), they have lots of luck (Schumacher and lots of others who survived in the top teams) and they are fast. One thing that Michael had that a lot of these guys didn't seem to display or maybe even need, however, was his ability to build and maintain a team and his ability to develop the car.

An interesting discussion, and a waste of work time:D
 

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Only time can offer evidence of a driver's greatness according to his achievements and for the recent years this is the case only for MS. FA seems to be in a path but who knows what will follow for him within a moving environment. I remember a few years back a new driver in F1 in his first race won the pole and finished second only after following his team's orders. Next year he won the championship and since then he left from F1, he came back and he achieved nothing else, but for the first two years he was the hot stuff. His name is J Villenueve. My point is that it is too early to compare anyone to MS. He is the one that holds the records and he is the one that gave Ferrari a constructors championship after a long time, coming back from an accident but beeing able to perform like it never happened and gathering all the points he did. Also how can we compare him to drivers of other eras, decades back, when pilots where usually from higher social classes and tended to follow a different life style, more towards a playboy like? MS after his mother's funeral returned and won a race, his training and physical condition is that of a first class olympic athlete and, like the rest of today's drivers, he operates in an environment that puts human body under extreme stress. Could the drivers of other eras do that? Maybe with the right training, but would they choose to follow it and pass on the good life? Nobody can say for sure. Anyway, time will tell if we 'll see another "great" or not.
 
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