[nochicken]

I'm preparing to replace the entire exhaust system (not the exhaust manifold itself, just from there back) in my '66 Super w/1750.

The bolts where the upper exhuast pipe connects to the manifold are a PITA to put a wrench on. I have the front end up on ramps and am accessing from underneath for a least a few of the bolts. Of course, the bolt head spins as I loosen the nuts, so this looks like a two-person job.

I was thinking that vice-grips would be helpful to clamp the bolt head, but any tips, techniques, and/or useful tools to accomplish this would be appreciated.

Thanks.

 

[rogerspeed]

I do them all from underneath as a one person job. I use a 13mm 6-pt deep socket with a swivel and long extention to get leverage. From underneath you slip a box-end wremch on the bolt with one hand with the other hand turn the ratchet/socket (on the nut) till the wrench on the bolt head snugs against one of the pipes so it won't turn, keeping the turning pressure on the ratchet so the wrench doesn't slip, get two hands on the ratchet and turn with full force, it ain't easy but it works. When reassembling I use use new grade 8 and/or hardened fasteners, with ant-sieze

 

[sono veL.O.ce]

I would recommend that if you are replacing the exhaust anyway, you cut the existing pipe with a sawzall or hacksaw right before the flange. this should buy you some room to wrestle the old bolts off.
I agree with the long flex socket idea. It's worked for me in the past.

Definetly use new hardware withantisieze. it wil make the jobgo easier.

I will be doing this job myself next week so if you need to commiserate. you know who to call.

It's never fun.

 

[nochicken]

Thanks for the tips. I picked up a few extra tools ("wobble" extension, vice grips) and took a quick look at it again today. I'm still having problems getting a socket on the nut from underneath (due to promity to the pipes) but think eventually this will work.

The real tool I need is a car-lift

 

[nochicken]

The good news is I removed the old exhaust system--did not have to saw anything off

I'm now encountering a problem with the mounting bracket on the front section of the new exhaust. The two holes/slots on the new bracket do not match the old system leading to a problem when trying align the exhaust bracket to the mounting bracket on the Super. See the attached files for pictures. I'm pretty certain this is the correct system from Centerline (Joe was very helpful to verify that this is the right exhaust to use with a Super with 1750 upgrade).

It also appears that I may have some clearance issues with the floor-mounted pedal linkage near the exhaust. I can't really verify until I get the mounting bracket situation fixed.

Has anyone run into this before? Does it require drilling a new hole or am I missing something here? It does not appear as if the mounting bracket on the car has any left-right adjustment.

Thanks.

 

[rogerspeed]

You want to mount the downpipe to the exhaust manifold first, then deal with the transmission mount support bracket. First remove the horizontal part of the two piece transmission mount bracket, then install the downpipe to the exhaust manifold with the six bolts and two 3 hole gaskets, fully torque, this will tell you if you have proper pedal box clearance, assuming you engine and transmission mounts are good, then install the horizontal bracket between the transmission mount and the integral flange bracket on the downpipe, it is not uncommon that you will have to alter either/both at this point

 

[nochicken]

I went ahead and installed the front piece to the exhaust manifold. Without being attached to the mounting bracket car, there is interference with the linkage--not severe, but it is in constant contact. Is it possible to bend the exhaust at this point (it is somewhat on a "curve" already, and is near the side of the low point of the exhaust)?

With the front piece installed and with the interfering linkage, I can manage to get one set of holes aligned on the mount (on the car) and the bracket on the exhaust. This is under a fair amount of stress in order to align. The linkage interference under this condition is more pronounced.

The motor mounts appear fine and *I think* the transmission mounts were done about 5 years ago (will need to check PO receipts).

Thus, I'm thinking I need to do two things:
1. Have the pipe bent at the point of interference.
2. Driill a third hole on the bracket closer inbound to the exhaust pipe.

Any suggestions most appreciated.

 

[rogerspeed]

Since the front pipe interferes/hits/touches the pedal box/linkage I recommend you contact centerline before making any alterations to that front pipe, you need a down pipe that cleanly clears the box/linkage. The support bracket assembly is designed to support the exhaust and limit vibration so the pipes don't crack as the engine and exhaust system moves during operation of the car, it should not be used to force to location of the pipe. Some deflection of the bushings is normal, but not an excessive amount of stress. Once the problem of clearence of the pedal box/linkage is resolved, alteration of either the intermediate bracket and/or the exhaust pipe flange bracket is OK, but you have to deal with the clearence problem first.

 

[rogerspeed]

I looked at some reference manuals, it appears the front pipe you need is the same used for the 65-69 GTV. That pipe was for the 1600/1750 with floor pedals, the down pipe for 71-74 1750/2000 is for hanging pedals and is probably what is causing the interference. The sedan uses a longer center pipe, but the front is the same sedan/GTV/spider

 

[nochicken]

That's exactly the one that Centerline recommends (and the one that I bought). I'm checking with them to make sure it was the right one, but it was labelled properly (even including how much of the front section pipe has to be removed for the Super).

I'm wondering if there is just variability in the manufacturing. The inteference would go away if the pipe were bent inward something like a 1/4 to 1/2 inch. But, I still wonder about the bracket configuration as the slot configuration is not right.

On the mount info, the engine mounts look good (no obvious failure), the rear transmission mount is for the hydraulic clutch type (the mechanical type is seemingly NLA), and the exhaust hanger bracket bushings were replace in 2001. I need to get out the manuals and see how all this is put together. BTW, is there any type of check to determine failed transmission mounts? I had the car in to the local Alfa mechanic a couple of months ago--changed out the driveshaft center mount but everything else looked good at the time.

Thanks.

 

[Alfajay]

Another thing you may want to check is how the center exhaust piece will fit when coupled to the front pipe. If the front pipe is bent to the left/right, even by a small angle, it will displace the rear of the center section quite a bit. Also, by bending the front section, you may upset its alignment with the 6 (hard to access) bolts that attach it to the two cast iron manifolds.

These sort of problems are a real pain. Centerline probably sent you the right part - perhaps there is some dimensional difference between the GTV and the Super, perhaps (as you proposed) this is a manufacturing tolerance issue. I certainly wouldn't drive the car if the exhaust system can touch the brake linkage - the rattling will drive you nuts, and there could be a safety issue. Some sort of modification to the pipe may be the only solution - just be sure that any modification doesn't alter the alignment of the pipe at its front or back ends.

As rogerspeed wrote, modifying the bracket between the pipe and the transmission is not an uncommon thing to do. And, as he advises, make sure that the bracket bolts up without pulling or pushing the pipe - this is what electric drills & rat tail files are for.

 

[nochicken]

I verified that I have the correct parts--Centerline has been very helpful.

Based on talking with Julio at Milano Motors, I installed all three pieces (fully torqued)--no alignment problems from the front piece back and will bring it in to his shop to heat and bend the one downpipe that is infringing on the linkage.

I was hoping to be able to carefully mark where the bend is needed, but realistically, will need to show the exact problem area to the gent doing the bending. Also, this will let us exactly align the front bracket so that a new slot can be drilled (that will not apply undue force on the mounting bracket).

The stock front piece was awfully close to fitting perfectly--the issue is more of a "left-right" alignment issue versus an "up/down" issue.

This has been a pain, but I am getting good at R&R'ing those 6 manifold-to-front piece bolts

Thanks for all the inputs. I'll post a photo when I get it squared away.

 

[sono veL.O.ce]

shheaaat!

I'm experiencing the exact same problem on my car now. serious interference on the pedal box, compounded by problem with alignment on the tranny mount.

My car has all new motor and tranny mounts so I can verify this is not the issue.

Mine is a 1600 1964 Ti, all stock headers etc.

I'm thinking of going the same route... having the muffler guy bend and tweak to fit.

Strange that these parts arent fitting. I think with both of us having the same problem, we can rule out manufacturing errors.

 

[nochicken]

Are you having fit problems with a 1600 configuration? My Super has a 1750 and I went with the preferred exhaust system (for later Berlina) which is the closest to having the correct front section to clear the linkage.

Apparently, the 1750 adds some 2" of height over the stock 1600 causing the interference (I have no way of verifying this).

The bracket on the exhaust system looks "tailorable" to permit adding new slots to get the exact fit. It's probably made this way to support a wide application of the exhaust to other models.

I'll let you know how the heating goes--this is getting done today or tomorrow.

On the plus side, it was nice to finally hear my Super with a good (non-holy) exhaust system on it --not the same as the old Spider (with 2000/SPICA/K&Ns) but not bad.

 

[sono veL.O.ce]

Yep.

Original 1600 motor and manifold. But I couldn't describe the problem any better than you already have. Same issues.

I expect the muffler guys will tweak it right, but I'm disappointed that these parts aren't bolting right-up.

 

[sono veL.O.ce]

we could verify the 2" thing by both measuring from the bottom of the manifold flange to the top of the motor mount and comparing numbers.

 

[rogerspeed]

I think the advice was bad, the 1750 has a 6.5 longer stroke than the 1600 and the engine are slightly tilted so I don't think the mounting is 2" higher. The later Berlina had hanging pedals so the bend is different because it didn't have clear the floors pedal. Centerline is my perfered supplier, but if you look at the IAP website they sell the same front pipe for the 1600/1750 floor pedal cars, that is pipe to use.

 

[nochicken]

I didn't have any luck with IAP--from their catalog and website, it did not list any type of exhaust specific to the Super.

Centerline specifically calls out the front section to use on a Super if it has been mod'd to a 1750 and specs out the amount that has to be removed from the tail end of the front section. This is the same front section as the '69Berlina and GTV, according to the website. Don't know if the '69 Berlina had floor pedals, but this front section was also the recommended replacement for a Super with 1750 mod by a couple of folks here on the bb.

In my case, the linkage interference is there but the exhaust bends came awfully close to clearing it--at this point I'm not surprised that hiccups like this are occurring due to the 1750 being installed.

I guess that is why exhaust system replacement requires a BFH and a bit of four-letter persuading

 

[rogerspeed]

From hands on experience the front section for the 1600 GTV/Duetto works fine on the Super, that is the IAP unit I was refering to. A '69 Berlina had floor pedals but is an "early" Berlina, your previous post said you got the front section for a "late" Berlina which would be (USA) 71-75 with hanging pedals. What was the centerline part # you ordered/received?

 

[nochicken]

The front section was P/N OE403. The description is:

"Front downpipe from headers for 1969 GTV, Spider, and Berlina. Also fits earlier cars with 1750 or 2000 engines. SHORTEN 240MM FOR GTV SHORTEN 250MM FOR SPIDER DUETTO/BOATTAIL NO CUT FOR BERLINA SHORTEN 65MM FOR SUPER/TI WITH LARGER ENGINE .

Centerline did well to include alll this detail--the IAP description doesn't reference the Super. My earlier post meant "later" in the sense it was newer than my Super--not actually the later model year(s) Berlina. As you said, the Berlina '71 and on front sections won't work with the floor mounted configuration.