[39cub]

So. I need to replace the 42 year old engine mounts on my '65 Giulia Sprint GT. (Go figure... )

Looks like everyone has the aftermarket mounts at about $40 each. There are some OE Alfa mounts out there for about $120 each.

The OE seller says they're better and will support the engine properly far longer (3X longer?) than the "lesser quality" aftermarket stuff. Well, I hope so...

Anybody able to confirm or comment on this?

Any guidance much appreciated.

Thanks,

Chuck


Oh, while we're in the neighborhood, any thoughts on the various fans out there for a 1600: skinny "performance"; OE or wider 1750?

 

[Andrew]

The thinner fan will save you an HP or two. Fine if it's not killer hot where you are and/or you don't spend a ton of time stuck in traffic. 1600 twin-carb engines in my experience run very cool, perhaps too cool. My Supers have never run over 170.

I would go with aftermarket. I don't personally find a lot of difference between rubber motormounts. Trans mounts, there are big differences. And poly and reinforced motormunts are another story. But between rubber OE and aftermarket, I don't see much difference myself.

Andrew

 

[39cub]

Andrew, thanks.

I'm in Atlanta, where it can get hot and the traffic stinks. But when it's hot, I'm not driving the Alfa anyway. So maybe the thinner fan would be a reasonable choice. I've heard that the wider bladed 1750 fan might sap a bit of power while moving more air, but perhaps I don't need to make that trade-off.

What ARE your thoughts on reinforced mounts, like Paul Spruell's? This is strictly a street car, carefully driven, no rough-housing. Spruell says they last forever. Is there a down side?

http://www.paulspruell.com/parts/parts.html

Thanks again!

Chuck

 

[Andrew]

I haven't used the reinforced mounts, so I can't comment. What I will say is I've never had much problem with OE or aftermarket mounts in many year and many miles of Alfa driving. I don't see the need for a street car.

Andrew

 

[Zunige]

Hi Chuck,

I would give Don Ereminas a call (http://www.alfa-romeoparts.com/ and he also advertises in the Alfa Owner)... At least for the much more modern Spiders he developed polyurethane motor mounts (he's the only one who sells these) which work very nicely, and will probably last the life of the car. Don't assume that these are just a rigid version that will feed horrible engine vibration back through your cabin. We've come a long way from that. I use his poly mounts and will never go back to OE or other aftermarket brands.

Best regards,

 

[39cub]

Thanks again, Andrew.

(A couple of pictures of the engine bay clean-up.)

 

[39cub]

Enrique,

Thanks for your suggestion, and for sharing your experience! I'll talk with Don.

(You might remember, we talked about my '91 164S some time ago. Well, it's found a very good home in the Hollywood Hills, literally overlooking Hollywood Blvd, where it now lives with some nice Peugeots, Saabs and Jags.)

Always good to hear from the good folks on the BB.

Chuck

 

[Zunige]

Enrique,

Thanks for your suggestion, and for sharing your experience! I'll talk with Don.

(You might remember, we talked about my '91 164S some time ago. Well, it's found a very good home in the Hollywood Hills, literally overlooking Hollywood Blvd, where it now lives with some nice Peugeots, Saabs and Jags.)

Always good to hear from the good folks on the BB.

Chuck

Oh yes Chuck, I remembered you well before I posted, and likewise - it was good to see your post. BTW, I kept all the pics... I do look at them form time to time and think of what could have been... I'm very glad it went to a good home!

Best regards,

 

[gprocket]

Enrique,

I am curious what you see as the advantage to using poly motor mounts. How long have you had them? I would be concerned about the heat aging aspects of the poly. Is the material the cast urethane type (like rollerblade wheels) or more like regular rubber (which would likely be millable gum polyurethane)? Were they really expensive. MGP Urethance is about 8 X the cost of normal rubber.

I am really curious because I am in the rubber business and I make motor mounts (not for Alfas unfortunately) and I can't imagine anything doing the job of natural and synthetic rubbers that we use. Also, bonding with polyuthane is a real challenge. I'm not saying its not possible because, as you say, these are modern times and there is always something new coming out.

BTW, I use aftermarket mounts and see absolutely no need to pay the extra for "factory" mounts. Unless I miss my guess, these motor mounts are not made in the Alfa Romeo factory (as if there was one) and therefore are made by a supplier (Pirelli?). So the only difference is the markup that Alfa/Fiat adds to the selling price...

 

[Zunige]

Hi Rich,

The advantage that I see is two-fold: to have mounts that maintain their correct shape for years and years to come (out-living my ownership), and to avoid a maintenance expense in $$ and time. This also provides me with peace of mind from the fan exploding (especially on the track) due to sagging motor mounts, and the car always feels tight - up to spec, so to speak. I've had the poly mounts for almost three years now, and they are as the day they were installed. Not expensive at all, although I truly don't remember the cost.

I'm sold on poly. My '84 Spider was the guinea pig and I went with poly on everything, and now I won't use anything rubber, if I can get it in poly. Don Ereminas is the only one that carries poly motor mounts. The other bushings I order from Performatek or Centerline. Both carry them.

There has been a lot of debate about poly, here on the BB. Have a look at this thread: "Poly Bushing Question and Debate", and note this post from Andy Kress of Performatek. I don't get involved in the debates any more, since I just go by what I experience every day. Just today I went to evaluate a very nice Spider and gave the seller a ride in my '84, and he couldn't believe how nice and tight everything felt. Then I mentioned that it had been almost three years since the last maintenance was done on any suspension, bushings or mount components.

Best regards,

 

[gprocket]

Enrique,

A was researching polyurethane and found that it does indeed have good mechanical properties for motor mounts. I am still a little concerned about long term heat aging and bonding to the metal mounting plates but three years is a good start. I still think the rubber mounts are more than satisfactory to the task - I think 20 years is an acceptable life for a rubber mount.

 

[Zunige]

Rich,

I dunno about 20 years... That would be fantastic, but in my experience that just hasn't been the case. The '84 Spider I bought new, and it's had the motor mounts changed no less than 5 times. That's why this last time I decided to go with the poly mounts. I bought my '87 used, about 9 years ago, and when the car was evaluated, it needed motor mounts. These were changed right after I bought it, and they have been changed once again since then. Hence, my complaint about the lack of durability of the mounts... Paul Spruell also sells a version of mounts reinforced with an aluminum wrap and warns that torque causes engine rotation, which eventually affects the rubber mounts and causes them to sag... He's pretty adamant about using these on all cars that go on the track...

Best regards,

 

[gprocket]

Wow, that's definitely not good! My '69 mounts are at least 9 years old and show no signs of significant wear. I wonder what other's have experienced. In any event, if the poly mounts solve that problem they are certainly worth the change.

I would worry with Paul's design where the loads end up. Personally I'd rather it go into a $40 motor mount (but I know less about racing than most things).

You know, I had a roommate in college from Middletown - very hard on his cars. Could it be in the water?

 

[Alex]

There could be a difference between original and some aftermarket rubber engine mounts. My car's engine mounts are round-section, whereas the replacements I bought for them a couple of years ago are square-section. I know that my engine was rebuilt in the mid-'90s by the PO, so those 'round' mounts might have been fitted back then. In any case, I'll take a look in the parts book to see which type is shown. I know that the ones on my car really do need to be changed and it's just one of many jobs I'll be doing over the winter. Incidentally, gprocket is correct - Pirelli did originally make these mounts, as well as carb mounts, spring seat rubbers etc.

My thoughts on reinforced mounts: not on a street car. Torsional forces causing the motor to pitch under high load is a natural effect which racers try to minimise by using special mounts, straps, even small hydraulic struts - but all of these will produce higher NVH as engine vibrations are directly transmitted to the chassis. Standard mounts are made of rubber for quietness and comfort, which I think is slightly more important on the street than going for that extra 1% of power.

Your car is looking really good Chuck (you need alloy washers under the two rear cam cover bolts though, not fiber)! Is that green fuel hose you're using similar to the OE Cavis hose?

Alex.

 

[Zunige]

...You know, I had a roommate in college from Middletown - very hard on his cars. Could it be in the water?

The water that we get in NY certainly flows from north of the city!

I guess I should own up to the fact these Spiders where daily drivers for many years. One for twenty (and 165k mi.), and the other for seven (and ~ 35k mi). And yes, I do have fun with the cars, although I am also careful about about not abusing them and obsessive about their maintenance. Furthermore, I think the roads on which we drive also make a difference. I used to drive into NYC every day. We just don't have smooth roads, and the pot holes and bumps are unbelievable. When I bought the '87 Spider, also in Manhattan, the inspection on the lift revealed a broken rear spring.

In 2004, after an interstate spin-out on the ice, I decided that I did not have to drive the Spiders every day, and I retired them to our home in OH and decided that three seasons of pleasure driving would be just fine. Still, my favorite one has seen 16k mi. in the last two years, and this season isn't over yet. I think that all of this also makes a big difference.

I share Alex's view that aluminum reinforced mounts shouldn't be placed on a street car. I never placed them on any of my Spiders, because they are street cars. And for the few times that they will go on the track, the poly does just fine.

Best regards,

 

[39cub]

Hello All,

I appreciate all the insights and comments! What a great bunch of folks here!

Just got home a couple of hours ago from a great weekend driving with three GTVs, three Spiders, a 164L and a '62 Giulia Spyder along and around the Blue Ridge Parkway south of Asheville, NC. As you can tell from the photos, my '65 wasn't available, so we took our back-up car -our 2000 BMW 528iT- and assumed the role of support vehicle. The wagon has the factory sport package (lower, stiffer with fatter wheels) and some fantastic Michelin Pilot PS2 tires and it did a fine job of hanging with the smaller cars on the twisties.

Alex, you have a sharp eye: I do have 6 fiber washers on the cam cover. But that was original on this one. I know Alfa issued a tech note later in production calling for the aluminum washers. Should I switch out two?

The fuel hose IS Cavis, even so marked, secured from a Ferrari shop here in Atlanta. They had the band and key clamps, too. The Cavis hose seems to be much more readily available - and cheaper, of course - on your side of the water: I've noticed farm equipment suppliers selling it, as well as shops catering to Italian motorcycles.

I discovered while removing the intake manifold, that the carbs are grounded to the head via braided copper straps: news to me! So you see the new ones in the photo above. Did all carbed Alfas use those straps?

I noticed in the factory shop manual, page 27 of the "Engine, Transmission, Clutch" chapter, two photos showing a rectangular- section mounts. The OLD ones on my car are round in section.

Haven't received a response from Don Ereminas yet: Enrique, what color are the poly mounts you have?

Chuck

 

[Zunige]

...Haven't received a response from Don Ereminas yet: Enrique, what color are the poly mounts you have?

Chuck

Hi Chuck,
My poly mounts are black. Don will get back to you, but you may also want to place a call to Centerline (1-888-750-ALFA). Don has an association with Centerline, but I don't know if Centerline is selling his motor mounts. Centerline does sell Don's products, but the poly mounts were a Don exclusive. As Don has been slowing down a bit and taking time off, it seems like he is passing more and more over to Centerline...

Best regards,

 

[39cub]

Here's a shot of a stop on the Blue Ridge, at about 6053 feet above sea level. Not much color yet, but still beautiful... and fun. And about 30F cooler than here in HOTLANTA...

Chuck

 

[Gary Williams]

I've been using the aluminum reinforced mounts in my modified street-driven GTV for about four years and don't find them a problem. In fact, I don't notice they're there. If my engine begins to leak, as they usually do at some point, the aluminum covers will at least keep the gunk off the rubber.

I tend to wind the engine, especially on our many fine back roads, so like the extra support, even if it isn't readily apparent from the driver's seat.

 

[39cub]

To continue: After considering all the good advice, I decided to use the aftermarket mounts.

Well, that led to another problem and consequent question:

Problem: The holes provided for mounting the carb support rod to the new passenger side mount are 10mm diameter; the bolt used on my support rod is 6mm diameter.

Question: Does anyone have a simple solution to this mis-match?

Or, can I successfully transplant the upper steel portion of the old OE mount onto the new mount (seems it would come off after removing the two nuts)?

Chuck