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Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
Dear members,


We discussed the 1500cc 16valve fuelinjection engine in AR 603142 in another thread. I decided to make a list of all the engine variants I could find.
Here is a list with what I could find. Please add information and/or comment on this list.

Developments at Autodelta:
Source: Chapter “Special 4-cylinder Autodelta engines” in the book “Alleggerita” by Tony Adriaensens, 1st edition from 1994 and “Autodelta engines 1965 – 1976” in the book “Alleggerita” by Tony Adriaensens & Patrick Dasse & Martin Übelher, 2nd edition from 2012.

First of all, the chapter in "Alleggerita" 1st edition contains a photograph of Giulia Sprint GTA, chassisnumber AR 613124 (Anders Ericsson) with an 16 valve engine and a plenum (airbox) that looks a lot like the engine and airbox on AR 6130124. A date is not mentioned.
Our fellow member "Alleggerita" took that picture in the mid 80's at a historic event at the Nurburgring. The car is one of Helmut Haehn's 1600 GTA's fitted with a 1300 4-valve engine.

Developments by Autodelta:

1965:

GTA 1600 Group 2 engine
Displacement: 1567cc
Bore & Stroke: 78,0 x 82,0
4 cylinder with 8 valves
Cylinderhead: 105.32.053.00 twin plug with carburettors
Engineblock: 1600
Performance: 161 HP

1966:

1300 - 16V engine (noted in “Alleggerita” 1st edition)
Displacement: 1283 cc (1298 cc ??)
Bore & Stroke: 84,0 x 57,9
4 cylinder with 16 valves
Cylinderhead: narrow head single plug with carburettors
Engineblock: ??
Performance: approx. 160 HP at 9000 rpm

1967:

GTA 1600 Group 2 engine
Displacement: 1596 cc
Bore & Stroke: 78,7 x 82,0
4 cylinder with 8 valves
Cylinderhead: GTA 105.32.053.00 twin plug with carburettors
Engineblock: 1600
Performance: 170 HP

GTA 1600 Group 5 SA engine
Displacement: 1567 cc
Bore & Stroke: 78,0 x 82,0
4 cylinder with 8 valves
Cylinderhead: GTA 105.32.053.00 twin plug with carburettors and compressors
Engineblock: 1600
Performance: 220 HP at 7500 rpm (“Alleggerita” 1st edition)
First presented in Februari 1967 (“Alleggerita” 1st edition)

GT 1300 Junior Group 2 engine
Displacement: 1290 cc
Bore & Stroke: 74,0 x 75,0
4 cylinder with 8 valves
Cylinderhead: GT 1300 Junior with single plug ignition and carburettors
Engineblock: GT 1300 Junior
Performance: 135 HP

1600 S engine (noted in “Alleggerita” 1st edition)
Displacement: 1599 cc
Bore & Stroke: 82,0 x 75,7
4 cylinder with 8 valves
Cylinderhead: ?? with twin plug ignition and carburettors
Engineblock: ??
Performance: 170 HP

1968:

GT 1300 Junior Group 5 engine
Displacement: 1290 cc
Bore & Stroke: 74,0 x 75,0
4 cylinder with 8 valves
Cylinderhead: GT 1300 Junior with single plug ignition and fuelinjection
Engineblock: GT 1300 Junior
Performance: 140 HP

1969:

GTA 1600 Group 5 engine
Displacement: 1567 cc
Bore & Stroke: 78,0 x 82,0
4 cylinder with 8 valves
Cylinderhead: narrow head twin plug with fuleinjection
Engineblock: 1600
Performance: 175 HP

GTA 1300 Junior Group 2 engine
Displacement: 1290 cc
Bore & Stroke: 78,0 x 67,5
4 cylinder with 8 valves
Cylinderhead: 105.59.01.053.00 with twin plug ignition and carburettors
Engineblock: GTA 1300 Junior
Performance: 145 HP

GTAm 2000 Group 2 engine
Displacement: 1962 cc
Bore & Stroke: 84,0 x 88,5
4 cylinder with 8 valves
Cylinderhead: narrow head with twin plug ignition and fuelinjection
Engineblock: 1750 GTV
Performance: 195 HP

1970:

GTAm 2000 Group 2 engine
Displacement: 1985 cc
Bore & Stroke: 84,5 x 88,5
4 cylinder with 8 valves
Cylinderhead: narrow head with twin plug ignition and fuelinjection
Engineblock: 1750 GTV
Performance: 220 HP

1500 Marino engine
Displacement: 1496 cc
Bore & Stroke: 83,4 x 68,5
4 cylinder with 8 valves
Cylinderhead: GTA head with twin plug ignition and carburettors
Engineblock: 1300
Performance: 170 HP

1500 Marino engine
Displacement: 1496 cc
Bore & Stroke: 83,4 x 68,5
4 cylinder with 8 valves
Cylinderhead: narrow head with twin plug ignition and fuelinjection
Engineblock: 1300
Performance: 175 HP

1500 Marino engine
Displacement: 1496 cc
Bore & Stroke: 83,4 x 68,5
4 cylinder with 16 valves
Cylinderhead: narrow head with single plug ignition and fuelinjection
Engineblock: 1300
Performance: 195 HP

1500 Marino engine
Displacement: 1499 cc
Bore & Stroke: 76,3 x 82,0
4 cylinder with 8 valves
Cylinderhead: GTA head with twin plug ignition and carburettors
Engineblock: 1600

1500 Marino engine
Displacement: 1499 cc
Bore & Stroke: 76,3 x 82,0
4 cylinder with 8 valves
Cylinderhead: narrow head with twin plug ignition and fuelinjection
Engineblock: 1600

1500 Marino engine
Displacement: 1499 cc
Bore & Stroke: 76,3 x 82,0
4 cylinder with 16 valves
Cylinderhead: narrow head with single plug ignition and fuelinjection
Engineblock: 1600

1971:

GTA 1300 Junior Group 2 engine
Displacement: 1290 cc
Bore & Stroke: 78,0 x 67,5
4 cylinder with 8 valves
Cylinderhead: narrow head with twin plug ignition and carburettors
Engineblock: GTA 1300 Junior
Performance: 150 HP

1974:

GTA 1300 Junior Group 2 engine
Displacement: 1290 cc
Bore & Stroke: 78,0 x 67,5
4 cylinder with 16 valves
Cylinderhead: narrow head with twin plug ignition and carburettors
Engineblock: GTA 1300 Junior
Performance: 150 HP

No year specified:

1600 Formula 2 (1600 F2) or Group 5 engine (1967 is noted in “Alleggerita” 1st edition)
Displacement: 1591 cc
Bore & Stroke: 86,0 x 68,5
4 cylinder with 8 valves
Cylinderhead: GTA head with twin plug ignition and carburettors
Engineblock: 1300
Performance: 180 HP

1600 Formula 2 (1600 F2) or Group 5 engine (1967 is noted in “Alleggerita” 1st edition)
Displacement: 1591 cc
Bore & Stroke: 86,0 x 68,5
4 cylinder with 8 valves
Cylinderhead: narrow head with twin plug ignition and fuelinjection
Engineblock: 1300
Performance: 185 HP

1600 Formula 2 (1600 F2) or Group 5 engine (1967 is noted in “Alleggerita” 1st edition)
Displacement: 1591 cc
Bore & Stroke: 86,0 x 68,5
4 cylinder with 16 valves
Cylinderhead: narrow head with single/twin plug ignition and fuelinjection
Engineblock: 1300
Performance: 210 HP
Testrun in Lucien Bianchi’s GTA for the Giro di Corsica
Testrun in Nanni’s Brabham F2 (2nd engine)

1750 engine (year ?)
Displacement: 1779 cc
Bore & Stroke: 80,0 x 88,5
4 cylinder with 8 valves
Cylinderhead: 1750 head with single plug ignition and carburettors
Engineblock: 1750 GTV
Performance: 160 HP

1750 engine (year ?)
Displacement: 1779 cc
Bore & Stroke: 80,0 x 88,5
4 cylinder with 8 valves
Cylinderhead: GTA head with twin plug ignition and carburettors
Engineblock: 1750 GTV
Performance: 185 HP

1750 engine (year ?)
Displacement: 1779 cc
Bore & Stroke: 80,0 x 88,5
4 cylinder with 8 valves
Cylinderhead: narrow head with twin plug ignition and fuelinjection
Engineblock: 1750 GTV
Performance: 190 HP

1900 engine (year ?)
Displacement: 1905 cc
Bore & Stroke: 86,0 x 82,0
4 cylinder with 8 valves
Cylinderhead: GTA head with twin plug ignition and carburettors
Engineblock: 1600
Performance: 195 HP

1900 engine (year ?)
Displacement: 1905 cc
Bore & Stroke: 86,0 x 82,0
4 cylinder with 8 valves
Cylinderhead: narrow head with twin plug ignition and fuelinjection
Engineblock: 1600
Performance: 200 HP

1900 engine (1970 is noted in “Alleggerita” 1st edition)
Displacement: 1905 cc
Bore & Stroke: 86,0 x 82,0
4 cylinder with 16 valves
Cylinderhead: narrow head with single plug ignition and fuelinjection
Engineblock: 1600
Performance: 225 HP (260 HP at 9000 rpm according to “Alleggerita” 1st edition)

2000 SP engine (1966 is noted in “Alleggerita” 1st edition)
Displacement: 2056 cc
Bore & Stroke: 86,0 x 88,5
4 cylinder with 8 valves
Cylinderhead: narrow head with twin plug ignition and fuelinjection
Engineblock: ??
Performance: ??
Only 1 engine made

2000 Alfetta 16V engine (was used in 1973 in Alfetta sedan)
Displacement: 1985 cc
Bore & Stroke: 84,5 x 88,5
4 cylinder with 16 valves
Cylinderhead: narrow head with twin plug ignition and fuelinjection
Engineblock: ??
Performance: ??


Modifications (by Autodelta or others)

1300 Marino
Probably monosleeve, wide cilinderhead, 8 valve, carburetors (Webers?), probably double plug ignition, long rampipes, special sump
Picture from Francesco Tavoletti

1300 Marino
Probably monosleeve. narrow cilinderhead, 16 valve, fuelinjection, dry sump, double plug ignition
Picture from Nicola Paone

1300 16 Valve Solex carburetor set up
Probably monosleeve, small cilinderhead, 16 valve, Solex, inlet manifolds from a Autodelta Alfetta GTV, single plug ignition
Picture from Nicola Paone

16valve heads for 1300, 1500, 1600 and 2000 engines
With carburettors or fuelinjection
Dry or wet sumps (according to “Alleggerita 1st edition)

GTAm 2000 triple plug ignition (according to “Alleggerita 1st edition)
Displacement: ??
Bore & Stroke: ??
4 cylinder with 16 valves
Cylinderhead: narrow head with triple plug ignition and fuelinjection
Engineblock: ??
Performance: ??
Only one made and never used in a car or boat according to Mr. Chiti

1300 16 valve Angelini
Bore & Stroke 85 x 57 (85,0 x 57,0 ??)
Probably monosleeve, Angelini cilinderhead, 16 valve, carburettors or fuelinjection
Single plug ingnition ? (I haven’t seen twin plug Angelini heads up to now)
220 HP

1600 16 valve Angelini
Bore & Stroke ?? x ??
Probably monosleeve, Angelini cilinderhead, 16 valve, carburettors or fuelinjection
Single plug ignition ? (I haven’t seen twin plug Angelini heads up to now)
250 HP

2000 16 valve Angelini
Bore & Stroke 90 x 50 ?? (should be more like 90 x 78)
Probably monosleeve, Angelini cilinderhead, 16 valve, carburettors or fuelinjection,
single plug ignition
300 HP
Pictures from Guus Willems

If you translate this into engine displacements, it looks like this:

Displacements for Alfa engines (source “Alleggerita” 1st and 2nd edtion)

74,0 x 75,0 1290cc 1300 105 production series
76,3 x 82,0 1499cc 1500 Marino engine
78,0 x 67,5 1290cc GTA 1300 Junior
78,0 x 82,0 1567cc 1600 105 production series & GTA 1600
78,7 x 82,0 1596cc 1600 105 GTA Group 2 engine
80,0 x 88,5 1779cc 1750 105 production series
82,0 x 75,7 1599cc 1600 S engine (noted in “Alleggerita” 1st edition)
83,4 x 68,5 1497cc 1500 Marino engine
84,0 x 57,9 1283cc 1300 - 16V engine (noted in “Alleggerita” 1st edition)
84,0 x 88,5 1962cc 2000 105 production series
84,5 x 88,5 1985cc GTAm
85,0 x 57,0 1293cc Angelini 1300 16 valve
86,0 x 68,5 1592cc Formula 2 in 8V and 16V versions
86,0 x 82,0 1905cc 1900 engine in 8V and 16V (16V was abandonned?)
86,0 x 88,5 2056cc 2000 SP (only 1 made)

80,0 x 67,5 1357cc 1300 116 production series (block is used as a replacement for GTA 1300 Junior blocks)


For those of you unfamiliar with calculating the displacement (just in case):

Displacement = ((Pi/Cilinders) x (Bore x Bore) x Stroke x Cilinders)/1000

or

Displacement = ((3,14159/4) x (74x74) x 75 x 4)/1000 = 1290 cc


Ciao, Olaf
 

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Discussion Starter #3 (Edited)
Connection to Autodelta partsnumbers

Hello members,

The next thing I have been trying to do, is to connect the engines mentioned in the first post to the Autodelta partsnumbers mentioned in the "Alfa Romeo Competition Reference Handbook" (CRH) written and compliled by Don Black. Please remember that we are talking about Autodelta partsnumbers for complete engines for the US here.

The results are mentioned in the excelfile that is attached.
Have a look and give me feedback if you want. I do realise that the HP figures mentioned do not allways match with the numbers in the first post.
And I find that for example as a standard, three horsepower are deducted in the CRH, if an engine has the extra oilpumps because of the dry sump.
I read somewhere in "Alleggerita" or CRH that the extra oilpumps use about three horesepower. And I suspect that we are talking SAE BHP instead of DIN BHP. I have to check that.

Ciao, Olaf
 

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all Giulias

Nice work Olaf, and having your signature almost a guarantee of serous analyses and well done job. Small objections based on my memories and not book confrontations as I discus sometimes the topics on this forum with my “same age fuel tank” friends, (we were all GTA drivers once with different stories and luck, some without history and some EU champs, but forever in love in AR) and general impression is that this forum is high level board with “prime” articles. I simply don’t want to be a judge in topics where some of you are much better informed than me or my friends, but sometimes I (we) notice the facts different from my (our) records. So, take my objections as simply desire to improve this important and beautiful work that has contributed to the general story and memory of Alfa Romeo. As I understand that you can translate Italian, I am sending you a small portion of Domenico Chirico’s (chief engineer in AR in Massacesi era) text about “all Giulia’s heads” as you didn’t mention 3V variant ( it was tested in Autodelta in 1968, and tried in more than one engine), and that is my first objection. The other curious fact is statement that 1300 engine ”testa stretta” was proved in its 16V form in 1966. In my opinion, that data is a little bit too early, though “testa stretta” was experimented even on Giulietta engines (in 1959) and was not new as idea. But let us remember. In 1968, 16V engines were excluded by FIA regulation from Gr.5 and remained as a source for F2 only. Chiti has tried for GTA, a Heron flat head where chamber was incorporated in piston head, but that experiment was abandoned soon because of thermal troubles and enormous bore. In that situation first experiments with 45° degree head were tried to improve GTA’s competitivity, and after surprisingly good results that solution was transferred to 1750 GT Am block in 1970 and GTAJ 1300 block in 1971 changing only chambers form. From these facts supported also by Tabucchi, results that 1966 is too early, and first “testa stretta” was proved on GTA 1600 in “4 Ore del Jolly Club” in Monza, 24.03.1968. (I have to say that I never got the possibility to consult “Alleggerita” book , though I know very well that this is capital source in AR history). In that year (1968), according to Tabucchi, also nautical engines were developed (probably 16 V engines “banned” from Gr.5 too)Twin spark and single spark were tested whenever possible and only the limits of space avoid general use of TS on each model. Beside Autodelta and Angelini, also Conrero, Monzeglio and Balduzzi have contribuited to the development of original Busso’s concept of twin cam Giulia 105. Engine project to its perfect form. (Conrero and Angelini produced almost all engine parts on their own designs, and could be considerate as engine producers in every sense).
Here is Chirico's text:

“Uno studio Autodelta qualche anno prima aveva confrontato diverse teste del 2.0: quella di serie a 2 valvole e 1 candela, la testa stretta GT-Am a 2 valvole e 2 candele, una testa stretta a 4 valvole e 1 candela centrale:
Sopra 5000 giri la migliore era la testa stretta a 4 valvole ma sotto 5000 giri la migliore era la testa stretta GT-Am. Si decise quindi di approfondire il comportamento stradale di un motore a testa stretta, studiandone i transitori di accelerazione dai regimi bassi e medi. Ciò fu fatto assemblando un motore con una testa stretta costruita anni prima e giacente nei magazzini del reparto sperimentale: si riscontrò un'elevata p.m.e. e prestazioni nettamente migliori del motore "normale". Si progettarono quindi tre nuove teste strette: 2 valvole 2 candele, 3 valvole 2 candele, 4 valvole 1 candela (per un'altra candela non c'era posto se non modificando profondamente il disegno). Dopo le prime sperimentazioni fu abbandonata la testa a 4 valvole, perché quella a 2 e quella a 3 valvole avevano comunque prestazioni migliori dei motori della concorrenza ai bassi e medi regimi e quasi equivalenti agli alti. L'urgenza della delibera non consentì di completare le prove di affidabilità sulla testa a 3 valvole (si temevano deformazioni termiche dovute alla dissimetria del layout) e quindi si optò per il 2 valvole. La situazione aziendale non consentiva però gli investimenti necessari all'acquisizione di nuovi macchinari e perciò si decise di mantenere tutto quanto già esisteva nel bialbero sotto alla testa (basamento, albero a gomiti ecc.) e far realizzare le nuove teste (fusioni e lavorazioni meccaniche) all'esterno.”
 

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Discussion Starter #5
1300 - 16V from 1966

Nice work Olaf, and having your signature almost a guarantee of serous analyses and well done job. Small objections based on my memories and not book confrontations as I discus sometimes the topics on this forum with my “same age fuel tank” friends, (we were all GTA drivers once with different stories and luck, some without history and some EU champs, but forever in love in AR) and general impression is that this forum is high level board with “prime” articles. I simply don’t want to be a judge in topics where some of you are much better informed than me or my friends, but sometimes I (we) notice the facts different from my (our) records. So, take my objections as simply desire to improve this important and beautiful work that has contributed to the general story and memory of Alfa Romeo. As I understand that you can translate Italian, I am sending you a small portion of Domenico Chirico’s (chief engineer in AR in Massacesi era) text about “all Giulia’s heads” as you didn’t mention 3V variant ( it was tested in Autodelta in 1968, and tried in more than one engine), and that is my first objection. The other curious fact is statement that 1300 engine ”testa stretta” was proved in its 16V form in 1966. In my opinion, that data is a little bit too early, though “testa stretta” was experimented even on Giulietta engines (in 1959) and was not new as idea. But let us remember. In 1968, 16V engines were excluded by FIA regulation from Gr.5 and remained as a source for F2 only. Chiti has tried for GTA, a Heron flat head where chamber was incorporated in piston head, but that experiment was abandoned soon because of thermal troubles and enormous bore. In that situation first experiments with 45° degree head were tried to improve GTA’s competitivity, and after surprisingly good results that solution was transferred to 1750 GT Am block in 1970 and GTAJ 1300 block in 1971 changing only chambers form. From these facts supported also by Tabucchi, results that 1966 is too early, and first “testa stretta” was proved on GTA 1600 in “4 Ore del Jolly Club” in Monza, 24.03.1968. (I have to say that I never got the possibility to consult “Alleggerita” book , though I know very well that this is capital source in AR history). In that year (1968), according to Tabucchi, also nautical engines were developed (probably 16 V engines “banned” from Gr.5 too)Twin spark and single spark were tested whenever possible and only the limits of space avoid general use of TS on each model. Beside Autodelta and Angelini, also Conrero, Monzeglio and Balduzzi have contribuited to the development of original Busso’s concept of twin cam Giulia 105. Engine project to its perfect form. (Conrero and Angelini produced almost all engine parts on their own designs, and could be considerate as engine producers in every sense).
Here is Chirico's text:

“Uno studio Autodelta qualche anno prima aveva confrontato diverse teste del 2.0: quella di serie a 2 valvole e 1 candela, la testa stretta GT-Am a 2 valvole e 2 candele, una testa stretta a 4 valvole e 1 candela centrale:
Sopra 5000 giri la migliore era la testa stretta a 4 valvole ma sotto 5000 giri la migliore era la testa stretta GT-Am. Si decise quindi di approfondire il comportamento stradale di un motore a testa stretta, studiandone i transitori di accelerazione dai regimi bassi e medi. Ciò fu fatto assemblando un motore con una testa stretta costruita anni prima e giacente nei magazzini del reparto sperimentale: si riscontrò un'elevata p.m.e. e prestazioni nettamente migliori del motore "normale". Si progettarono quindi tre nuove teste strette: 2 valvole 2 candele, 3 valvole 2 candele, 4 valvole 1 candela (per un'altra candela non c'era posto se non modificando profondamente il disegno). Dopo le prime sperimentazioni fu abbandonata la testa a 4 valvole, perché quella a 2 e quella a 3 valvole avevano comunque prestazioni migliori dei motori della concorrenza ai bassi e medi regimi e quasi equivalenti agli alti. L'urgenza della delibera non consentì di completare le prove di affidabilità sulla testa a 3 valvole (si temevano deformazioni termiche dovute alla dissimetria del layout) e quindi si optò per il 2 valvole. La situazione aziendale non consentiva però gli investimenti necessari all'acquisizione di nuovi macchinari e perciò si decise di mantenere tutto quanto già esisteva nel bialbero sotto alla testa (basamento, albero a gomiti ecc.) e far realizzare le nuove teste (fusioni e lavorazioni meccaniche) all'esterno.”
Hello Borzacchini Jr,

Thank you for the feedback concerning the 1300 - 16valve in 1966 as mentioned in “Alleggerita” 1st edition.
For the other members, we are talking about:

1966

1300 - 16V
Displacement: 1283 cc (1298 cc ??)
Bore & Stroke: 84,0 x 57,9
4 cylinder with 16 valves
Cylinderhead: narrow head single plug with carburettors
Engineblock: ??
Performance: approx. 160 HP at 9000 rpm

Yes, I agree with you that 1966 seems a little early for a 1300cc - 16V engine. From the documentation I get the impression, that this engine wasn't developed any further and remained an early attempt as such.

Thank you for the Italian text. I will read it and give my feedback.

Ciao, Olaf
 

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Discussion Starter #6
Cylinderheads production numbers

Hello members,


Following on the Excel file in post nr. #3 some extra info on Autodelta parts (in this case cylinderheads). The source is Performance Options Catalogue (POC II/III/IV - 1968/1971/1977)


Bore & Stroke Displac. Number Status

74,0 x 75,0 1290cc 105.30.01.053.00 1300 production (POC II - 1968)

74,0 x 75,0 1290cc 105.30.01.053.99 1300 prepared (POC II/III/IV - 1968/1971/1977)

78,0 x 67,5 1290cc 105.59.01.053.99 GTA 1300 Junior prepared (POC III/IV -1971/1977)

78,0 x 67,5 1290cc 105.32.01.500.09 GTA 1300 Junior prepared narrow head (POC IV -1977)

78,0 x 82,0 1567cc 105.16.01.053.00 1600 prepared (POC II - 1968)

78,0 x 82,0 1567cc 105.32.01.010.99 GTA 1600 production (POC II - 1968)

78,0 x 82,0 1567cc 105.32.01.053.00 GTA 1600 prepared (POC II - 1968)

78,0 x 82,0 1567cc 105.32.01.053.99 GTA 1600 prepared (POC II/III/IV - 1968/1971/1977)

80,0 x 88,5 1779cc 105.41.01.053.99 1750 prepared (POC III/IV -1971/1977)

84,0 x 88,5 1962cc 105.12.01.053.99 2000 prepared (POC III/IV -1971/1977)

84,5 x 88,5 1985cc 105.32.01.500.E08 GTAm prepared narrow head (POC III/IV -1971/1977)

86,0 x 82,0 1905cc 105.32.01.500.E08?1900 prepared narrow head (POC III/IV -1971/1977)


80,0 x 88,5 1779cc 116.08.01.053.99 Alfetta 116 (POC IV - 1977)

XX,X x XX,X xxxxcc 116.00.01.053.32 Alfetta 116 16V (POC IV - 1977)

XX,X x XX,X xxxxcc 105.32.01.500.32 Alfetta 116 Group 2 & 4 (POC IV - 1977)

Ciao, Olaf
 

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Discussion Starter #7
Hello members,

And here a list of pistons.

Pistons & Ring sets (source: Performance Options Catalogue IV)
Bore I.D. type Partnumber Status
74,0 2460 105.30.02.030.98 1300
75,0 2460 105.30.02.030.99 1300
78,0 5152 105.32.02.030.97 1600 GTA
78,0 5238 105.32.02.030.99 1600
78,0 none 105.59.02.030.01 GTA 1300 Junior
78,7 5240 105.32.02.030.98 1600 GTA
80,0 7344 105.41.02.030.99 1750
81,0 7344 105.41.02.030.98 1750 & IMSA
83,4 none 105.00.02.030.98 1500 Marino
84,5 6049 105.51.02.030.99 GTAm
86,0 none 105.32.02.030.96 1900
86,0 none 105.32.02.030.95 1900 16 Valve
84,5 5918 105.12.02.030.99 2000
84,5? none 116.33.02.030.32 Alfetta 16 Valve

Ciao, Olaf
 

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Hello Olaf,

Is there any information about the sovralimentato engines with the hydraulic superchargers? And which cars they went into?

Sid
 

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Discussion Starter #9
Hello Olaf,

Is there any information about the sovralimentato engines with the hydraulic superchargers? And which cars they went into?

Sid
Hello Sid,

I do not have much information on the GTA-SA engines and the cars (chassisnumbers) they went into because I can't access my books at this moment. Later this week I will be able to check and come back to you.

Ciao, Olaf
 

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GTA SA

I saw GTA SA in action at 4 hours of Monza in 1967 and it was impressive with Teo Zeccoli as driver. On the straights its acceleration was tremendous, though Zeccoli stated that it was frightening experience driving it because of its unpredictable behavior. The car (engine) was born on engineer G.P. Garcea’s project at Centro Esperienze, and based on previous experiments with Roots compressors used on 158 and 159 F1 cars, where Garcea was directly involved. Later, he tried supercharged version of Giulietta in ‘60ties, but when that idea was proposed to Chiti, he was not enthusiast at all, accepting the project only with intention to experiment its possibilities. To feed the standard 45 DCOE Webers, there were fitted two compressors capable of 100 000 rpm (taken from aircraft cabin blowers) powered by axial oil pump mounted above the sump on the carb side of the engine. As those chargers started to build at 500 revs, they were capable of producing constant pressure in whole engine range. The heat of oil was wasted in additional radiator. The pressurized air was sent into air box that was mounted between superchargers and there were also a bleed to the top of Webers in order to maintain right pressure in the float chamber. The charge was cooled with injected water into the inlet manifold, though the fear of fire or explosion was constantly present. The engine (for homologation purposes) was running on standard petrol and compression ratio remained unchanged (10.5/1) same as valve size. To slow the piston speed the stroke was shortened to 67,5 mm, and bore majored to 86 mm. The same values on the later 1300 GTAJ engine and identical crankshaft, were the certain sign that 1300 engine was already in preparation in that times. For the rest the GTA SA engine was virtually the same as “common” GTA racing version engine. It produced 220 BHP at 7500 revs and was capable of 240 kmh. It was immediately victorious in Hockenheim (with Dau) but remained the fact that it was very difficult to govern as the power of chargers was unpredictable arriving in different moments and different revs, and that’s why it was never desired among pilots. There were only ten cars produced in SA configuration and their development was stopped by the later FIA regulations (it was Group 5 homologation) as new requested number of 1000 cars was absolutely out of AR plans and possibilities. I don’t know chassis numbers used for GTA SA, and may be Olaf could enlighten that question. He also has published nice photos of SA engine in some of previous posts.
 

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The short-stroke GTA-SA engine is a myth perpetrated by Fusi and other Alfa history books. I was alerted to this by the late Angelo Chiapperini who told me that the bore and stroke measurements of the SA engine were identical to the standard GTA 1600. He had several SA engines in his shop at the time and I measured the bore on the one that was opened up at the time with a vernier caliper.

This makes sense engineeringwise in that a supercharged engine delivers torque low down and would not much benefit from lower piston speeds - unlike a short stroke 4-valve 1600.

Moreover, the monobloc engines always had some headgasket sealing issues which would have been worsened in a supercharged application - 1750GTam motors in historic racing continue to have them to this day, maybe more so because of the age of the material.

So, GTA-SA engines were 78mm bore with 82mm stroke.

To slow the piston speed the stroke was shortened to 67,5 mm, and bore majored to 86 mm. The same values on the later 1300 GTAJ engine and identical crankshaft, were the certain sign that 1300 engine was already in preparation in that times.
 

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GTA SA

Hi Alleggerita,
The same statements I have already heard from equally serious sources as you are. Also, your explanation about dubious benefits of shortened stroke in this charged version is logic to me. And to finish, if you have measured the bore, the doubts are cancelled. (I have never seen SA engine except on photos, and sincerely for me it was a mere experiment in GTA story). Remain the mystery why all the books repeat the same wrong data (probably they all have started from the first, erroneous source), and the fact is that I have also only repeated what I have found in Tabucchi’s book. Thanks for clearing.
 

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Discussion Starter #13
Competition Reference Handbook data

Hi Alleggerita,
The same statements I have already heard from equally serious sources as you are. Also, your explanation about dubious benefits of shortened stroke in this charged version is logic to me. And to finish, if you have measured the bore, the doubts are cancelled. (I have never seen SA engine except on photos, and sincerely for me it was a mere experiment in GTA story). Remain the mystery why all the books repeat the same wrong data (probably they all have started from the first, erroneous source), and the fact is that I have also only repeated what I have found in Tabucchi’s book. Thanks for clearing.
Hello Borzacchini, Alleggerita and members,

Have a look at the data for the GTA-SA in the attached excelfile in post #3 of this thread. The source is the Competition Reference Handbook (CRH).

Ciao, Olaf
 

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Just wished to ask about another engine, the tipo 33 v8, put into the gta for testing. In my Italian only book on the alfa romeo montreal it states ".....inoltre in quel periodo la casa milanese stava sperimentando il motore v8 sulle Giulia coupe. All inizio del 1967, infatti, L'Autodelta allesti alcune GTA con motore 2 litri della 33 per effetuare una serie di test sulla pista di Balocco...."
It is surprising the v8 fit in the Giiulia engine bay and I have not seen any photos of these cars though surely some photos still survive. Do any of you know more about this testing?
 

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Olaf, also regarding the 16v engine used on the Alfetta berlina 1973 I have the Alfa Romeo Competition handbook data for 116 parts dated June 1973 and to fill in some gaps in your tables...the block of this engine was 2000, the head being coded 116000105332 There are other colour photos of the engine head in the book by Jim K on the DOHC engine in which it states these engines reached 240hp at 8000rpm.
The Alfetta also used the GTAM T/S 8v head and I have period photos of 2 Alfetta GT rally cars engine bays, one using dellorto carbs and the other weber carbs with what looks like a narrow angle head in both. These engines produced circa 200hp at 7000rpm with torque spread widely between 2000 and 7000 unlike the 16v engines.
 

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The short-stroke GTA-SA engine is a myth perpetrated by Fusi and other Alfa history books. I was alerted to this by the late Angelo Chiapperini who told me that the bore and stroke measurements of the SA engine were identical to the standard GTA 1600. He had several SA engines in his shop at the time and I measured the bore on the one that was opened up at the time with a vernier caliper.

This makes sense engineeringwise in that a supercharged engine delivers torque low down and would not much benefit from lower piston speeds - unlike a short stroke 4-valve 1600.

Moreover, the monobloc engines always had some headgasket sealing issues which would have been worsened in a supercharged application - 1750GTam motors in historic racing continue to have them to this day, maybe more so because of the age of the material.

So, GTA-SA engines were 78mm bore with 82mm stroke.
I thought they were 1300 engine not 1600?
Pete
 

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Discussion Starter #17
GTA-SA displacement

Hello Pete,

Have a look at the Excel file in post nr.3 of this thread.
You will see that the GTA-SA engines are 78,0 x 82,0.

Ciao, Olaf
 

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Olaf,

I asked earlier about the tipo 33 v8 being put into the gta for testing but nobody replied. Since you seem to have all the relevant records of the period do you know more about these cars since they were tested by Autodelta as i do not have any photos either of them?
 

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Olaf,

I asked earlier about the tipo 33 v8 being put into the gta for testing but nobody replied. Since you seem to have all the relevant records of the period do you know more about these cars since they were tested by Autodelta as i do not have any photos either of them?
One was out in a GTA in Australia and raced ...
Pete
 
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