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Discussion Starter #21 (Edited)
Paul, sorry - late night last night!

Generally annoyed with GoTech threads that seem to somehow turn in to Megasquirt comparison cluster****s...! (A bit of both actually!)

Somebody should start a thread comparing the two if it is really that important (not hijack a step-by-step installation thread about one system in particular) - preferably somebody who cares, or somebody who really wants to know! People often want to compare price, rather than effort, quality, time invested, support, functionality, development history of the product, flexibility, installation and tuning time, or the many other factors that should play a role in the decision for such a system...

As far as I know you need to either source all of the components and build it yourself (solder parts together etc etc) or have somebody build it for you (many vendors offering to do this.) Seems a bit silly when a turn-key solution is right there in-front of you - today - available for peanuts (relatively speaking - the way these things go...)

I don't sell MS, I don't "play" with it, I don't use it and my only experience with it was a VERY bad one. The shop - G2 - was taken for a HUGE and expensive ride by just one of these people pushing these systems and who offer to build it for you (he posted here and even had the balls to claim victory sold one to another member here!) Hence the reason when you mention MS - I see RED! 1600 dollars to build the MS and install it and another 2,000 dollars to tune it for them! - This, a car that we had ALREADY converted to T-bodies (and the Redline-Webber software system) and drove to the crook's shop!!!! And it ran like CRAAP on MS (with this huge stupid bazooka box at the passenger's feet!)

***!? MS - forget it. It's not even a fair comparison (not the same thing really - ) If it were, why not compare it to Autronic, or SDS or whatever? I don't see folks ask the more relevant question: "...what do you get for the extra 3-4-5,000 dollars of a Motec?"... Why not? Seems like a larger disparity in price there to "justify" - no!?

Output tests were posted before; ' 74 GTV made 90 to 95 at the wheels before the GoTech and T-bodies and now makes 110 to 115 consistently after the conversion from SPICA (on the same dyno.) Throttle-response is up immensely and it sounds awesome! Torque is also way up!

A stock 20-year old 3.0 12 valve making 140, 145, 150 at the wheels now makes 180 at the wheels with headers and slightly larger intake plenum and runners as the only other modifications! (The key on Motronic and L-Jet cars is that the conversion allows you to drop the restrictive AFM - greatly contributing to further gains! )

Fuel economy? People hunting for power "should" not care!? (There HAS to be some compromise - the laws of physics demand it!) Once the system is tuned right and your mixtures are accurate, you CAN'T make more power on less fuel! (The assumption being that you are running higher compression pistons, more cam, bigger headers etc - all requiring more fuel to realize the full potential of your motor!)

If you want fuel economy, buy a Prius - not a GoTech/T-body conversion! In any case, few here will use their converted 65-69-74 GTV/Spiders as a daily driver! The ones that we have done aren't being used that way either, so it is hard to say what happened to the fuel economy!? (Can't really use data from sporadic, spirited weekend drives as a base!)

Emissions, in theory you now have a much better chance of passing smog-testing! The engine can be leaned out and provided that you run closed-loop and the O2 sensor(s) activated, with cats installed, it should be all good. I know of at least one V6 car with GoTech that passed in California.
 

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Discussion Starter #22 (Edited)
We still have to do some wire-routing clean-up, but here are some updated shots of the coil-packs and plug-wires, one coolant port blocked of and the rebuilt radiator installed! (We'll come up with something better and more permanent for that one coolant port!)

Then, we also tried something different on this ' 72 GTV from what we did on the shop-owner's ' 74 2000. What we did on the previous installation is to run T-vacuum lines "in serie" originating at the last ITB (furthest from the ECU) and connecting via a "T" to the one next to it and to the next and so on - closer and closer to the fire-wall.

The last one Ts in to the back of the GoTech MAP sensor!

With this one we did a quick and dirty PVC balance-tube with 5 ports on it (one for each ITB in and one out-put to the GoTech ECU. Can't really say that we notice a difference one way or another since this car has not been dyno-tuned yet. That comes next! Once we ca conclusively say that it helps in some way, we will likely fab up a nice little welded aluminium box or something!

The brake booster is still connected via the check-valve port on the rear of the head!
 

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Discussion Starter #23
As a side-note; you can either go with the less-expensive, base-model GoTech Standard (at 700 including the harness) and keep your stock distributor! You would convert it with a Hal-sender and just run coil-fire direct via the stock coil (or a single after-market coil - as pictured here...)

I run that way on my 12 valve 3.0 daily-driver for almost 3 years now! Trouble-free!

Also, this set of 4 individual coils with the GoTech Standard and a single-coil setup (as pictured here) is for sale or the ITBs with a GoTech Pro, harness and dual-coils with the 60 minus 2 (60-2) crank-trigger setup!

Give me a buzz at 425.941.4747 and we can talk some more about it, or email me at [email protected]
 

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Discussion Starter #24
Some more shots...
 

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^
|---Which coil is this? And what is the charge time. It looks better then the Accel ford type I used.
The ford typs is a pain only due to the ford connectors that cost half the price of the coil and the need for ford spark plug wires.


 

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Very interesting, will this system work with plug mounted coils? What are the benefits/drawbacks between the COP and the coil you show?

Thanks
 

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Trav do you know of a COP that would fit a nord 4cyl?
COPS fit the V6 nice but I do not see how you could ever put one on a nord.
CNP might work if you made some sort of brackit.


here is a VAG COP on a nord. see no way to mount it and you would need to drill holes in the hood..
 

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I think I have seen them somewhere, most likely an asian 4 cyl. (it might have been on a MS thread, I say reluctantly not wishing to receive some jungle justice :p) Maybe someone else here will have a fit.
 

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Discussion Starter #31 (Edited)
This happens to be the Redline/Weber coils, but they are basically a Miata coil... The work well - don't know what the charge-time is but it is going to be much faster than running a stock single coil on a V6 - I can tell you that much! Point is that most any coil will be fine.

You can convert the 4-banger Alfa to a COP setup, but why. oil-packs in general are sensitive to heat and vibration - why put them on the motor? On all of the V6 conversions that we do, we typically go remote fire-wall mounted (even with 24 valve motors that came COP - I go remote VW VR6, Alfa 155, Mitsubishi Pajero, Kia Poong Sung, Saturn - anything.

Yes, the GoTech Pro and Pro-X models will drive COP.

Any way - we are going to be moving away from the modified stock pulleys. They work with a really strong pick-up but not with weaker pick-ups (they start to loose resolution at higher rpm - 4-5K rpm on up - and start popping! The stock Alfa 164 and Twin Spark Bosch mag. pick-up can lift a 17-19mm wrench, some of the smaller after-market ones won't even lift an 8mm wrench...! - Best way that I know to compare! :confused: :eek: ;)

With the stock pulley notched 60-2, you have to leave some solid continuous edge for the V-belt and at higher rpm, the sensor sees that as a solid line.

Group 2 spent the money now and paid a shop for a custom CnC pulley with the correct TDC marking, 60 teeth cut all of the way through, (powder-coated etc.) They have 10 in stock now! (We were going to go aluminium, but we could not find an aluminium magnetic pick-up... :) )
 

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Is it mandatory to put these conversions on a dyno for tuning? Just wondering what the total package costs would end up to be, more or less.

Pro kit $900 includes what ?
notched pully and sensor= $?
Throttle bodies=$? (aside: performance advantage over Spica bodies?)
injectors, coils, wires, etc.
fab a coverplate or two,
install at home,
Dyno tuning =$?

What has Brian's experience been for past 6 months? (Is that right?)

Thanks
C.
 

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Discussion Starter #33
For 900 bucks you get the Pro ECU, a complete, custom, plug and play wiring harness (not just a roll of wires and packets of connectors.) You also get a starting map and all of the assistance from me to get going - just ask around.

The harness already has an air-temp sensor on one of the tails, as well as Alfa/Bosch "AMP/Molex" quick-release connectors for the rest of it that simply plugs right in to a stock Bosch injector, on to an Alfa water-temp sender, in to the stock Bosch crank-angle sensor on a 164 or a twin spark, etc etc.

You can run MAP (manifold absolute pressure), TPS (throttle position sensor), or a blend of the two. You can run boost, launch-control etc and you have a variety of inputs and outputs to drive things such as an after-market tach, and external shift-light, fan-relays, fuel-pumps etc., as well as to receive input from a wide-band lambda sensor for example, water-temp sensors as mentioned etc.

You also get the tuning software to load on to your laptop. That is a big difference from say Squadra, UniChip, Bosch etc where they don't give you access to their tuning software (as a retail customer) and yes; you need SOME dyno-time.

Don't be intimidated by that - the dyno is no big deal. With all of the maps that we have floating around out there now, it is pretty simple to get going and then it just takes maybe a couple of hours at a dyno to get dialed in for local fuel and altitude as well as the mechanical efficiencies of your individual motor (cams, ports, compression-ratio, exhaust etc all plays in to it.)

The new custom 4 cylinder pulleys from G2 is around 180 USD if you have them do a conversion and you buy other parts and about 225 USD if you just buy the pulley. (Not 100% sure right now - not my pulleys - I can check though - buzz me later at 425.941.4747.)

The 4-set of SPICA ITBs are actually nice and big once you remove the tubes inside. Still the TWM Redline Weber ITBs (2 sets of doubles) looks much nicer, but they run somewhere north of a grand -1,200 bucks. The 4 single individual GoTech ITB units can be stacked 1-2-3-4-5-6-8-10-12 cylinders - any configuration - and will work with any adapters. They run about 1500 for a set of 4 including linkages etc. I have a set read to ship.

Email me off-forum and I can price a kit for you with ITBs, ECU, harness, FPR, crank-pulley or dizzy-setup, coils, injectors, rails etc. Hair Salon | Regina Celeste or 425.941.4747 in Seattle.

Brian's car was an Alfetta Coupe that was done with a single coil and a Hall-sender with a GoTech Standard and a Spica manifold - the budget way to go. That car runs well, but he sold it. This gentleman's plumb ' 73 GTV above runs the GoTech Pro with the Redline Weber TWM ITBs and the 60-2 crank setup - just like Joe's ' 74 at G2...
 

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John, thanks for doing the write-up. I learned some more by reading this.
 

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Discussion Starter #36
Why are we not able to make edits to posts in this thread - what's with the permatex/permalink bs...?
 

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John - rereading this thread, as I am interested in making my twin spark programmable and setting up some Spica throttle bodies on the TS manifold and installing the Spica air box. How are you controlling the idle? I see you are using the air ports for MAP, but don't see any idle ports. Can you comment on that?

Also, can you trigger both twin spark coils if I retain the twin distributors and twin coils?

Thanks
 

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Discussion Starter #38
There are a couple of ways to go on this;

You buy the top of the line 9-driver GoTech Pro-X box (around 1,600 bucks US plus shipping) and have one of it's optional outputs drive an idle-air control motor and valve, or you can just set the idle (warm) with the set-screws on the throttles - for manual idle (and then rely on the seperate cold-start enrichment maps within GoTech to hold the idle up for you went cold)!

On the 24v Verde I just hold the throttle open manually with the standard manual throttle set-screw on the throttle-body and it works great hot or cold! Lean in the window, bump the key - no throttle - and it fires right up, idles smooth and idles fine when warm too... No idle motor!

The middle of the road Pro (1,100 USD), or the top model Pro-X will both drive the dual coils and fire via the stock dizzies distributing the spark! I would dump all of that and block off the dizzie holes! Use the existing 60-2 crank-trigger, get rid of all of the standard coils and the standard dizzies and just install two bricks of 2 X 4 coils and fire it that way!

Semi-sequential and be done with it! So, on coil-brick # 1, coil-1, both of the plug-leads would go to the two spark-plugs on cylinder number 1 and on coil-2 from that same coil-brick # 1 both plug leads would go to the two spark plugs on cylinder number 4. On coil-brick # 2, coil-1, both plug leads would go to the two spark plugs on cylinder number 2 and on the other coil on that same coil-brick # 2, both plug leads would go to the two spark plugs on cylinder number 3...

You will simply have the GoTech fire 4 plug wires (for # 1 & # 4) and then the other 4 wires (for # 2 & # 3)... Works great! One LA customer's full-race TS GTV makes something stupid like 230-240 horses this same way on the GoTech Pro!
 

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Hi JJ I am a owner of a lot of classic alfas but my everyday car is a 75ts ASN which i have made 2000km from the totally engine rebuild which I made in original form exept ported head from Jim Kartalamakis, C&B stradale cams with use of variator, kent cams springs,little higher compresion from mild the head and lightwaight flyweel, all the ather parts is stock motronic, csc headers and exhaust.
I don't like the afm and I know that I need custom program, after a lot of read I find your threads at alfabb for the gotech pro conversion. I like your custom wires but I have some questions. I think because of the money to stay at the standard inlet system. So the question is:
1) What about the use of λ sensor (my car is catalityc and I mast every 2 years to past smoke test), now I don't use cat
2) must I use the stabilizer idle valve from the motronic, or I don't need it, one of the reasons which I like to go to gotech efi is the up and doun idle because afm and idle valve of motronic.
3) From that I understand I can use from motronic the angle sensor of the crank, water temperature sensor, fuel rail and injectors (do I need bigger injectors?), TPS, lambda sensor, what about fuel and timing variator ralay?
5) I don't want distributors and I need coil packs.
6) Do you have any starting map to install and run the car for 500km to go to dino metter for final adjust. (in my place I haven't any dino metter)
Which is the totally cost if I stay to standard inlet system and what I need, I mean the gotech, coil packs, sensors, wiring harness in plug and play situation (skin out the motronic and put the gotech), how I can contact with you
I know that is a lot of questions from a man who don't know good English, please help,
With regards
Jim
 

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Discussion Starter #40
Hi there Jim - no worries with the English - it's better than my Greek! :eek:

What is an "ASN" though...?

Yeah - I don't like the restrictive flapper-crapper AFMs either. You can UniChip the car to give you some control over the fuel and timing and then do the conversion to a straight pass-through hotwire-type MAS tube (with the Split Second conversion to drive the signal conversion from analog to digital to analog...) This way you retain most of the base maps for cold-start, idle, WOT, part-throttle, back-off mode etc etc. Check out this thread - http://www.alfabb.com/bb/forums/engine-management/52954-split-second-afm-mas-conversion-split-second-splitsecond.html

The other alternative - like you said - is to go with a fully-programmable, stand-alone engine management and it's pretty easy with Motronic engines (you already have the crank-angle sensor there that plugs right into the GoTech for example and you have the 60-2 crank-trigger wheel that is also very compatible with the GoTech). You can also start by just simply running it on TPS, or just on MAP, or attempt to go MAP/TPS 50/50-blend right away. You can also leg into the variable cam setup or do it all right away!

I like to start simple, get it running and then add complexities as I go! You can start out running semi-sequential fuel and semi-sequential timing (wasted spark) and then after you get it going - incorporate the additional cam-sensor at the rear of the head to run full-sequential! I'd buy the top of the line GoTech Pro-X - that way you are sure to have enough additional inputs/outputs to run everything - including an idle-control valve.

The short answer to most of your questions is yes - you can retain the cam-variable setup - driven by one of the GoTech's outputs. You would simply add a 4-wire (and now I hear - potentially a 5-wire) O2 sensor with the Pro-X. Initially you can just run "open loop" without it and then when you have it going and mapped pretty close - activate "closed-loop" and have the Pro-X take readings from the O2 sensor and make further adjustments! It's always better to first start in open-loop and manually tune it - as close as possible - and then go closed-loop!

You would utilize all of the other standard sensors for water-temp, cold-start etc. The GoTech harness comes with an air-temp sensor and there is a MAP sensor built into the ECU for you. You will have to change the two-position (Idle / WOT) TPS sensor to a potentiometer-type sweeping TPS from say an E46 BMW, or something. You keep your standard rails and injectors.

I don't know what you mean by "fuel and timing variator ralay"...? You should install an adjustable fuel-pressure regulator, set it to 3 BAR and forget about it. You would get rid of BOTH distributors and just go coil-packs and run off of the crank-pulley 60 minus 2 trigger-wheel - run 8 good plug-wires from the coils to the plugs - like the Magnecors that we use.

We do have some starting maps for you to get you going, but it would be best if you start learning a bit about the system, perhaps borrow or purchase an innovate LM-1 AFR meter to stick in the exhaust and learn to make basic changes to the fuel and timing curves to get going. Plan on spending about 2,000 dollars USD between the acquisition of the GoTech Pro-X, the custom wiring harness, the coil-packs and plug-wires, installation and the basic tuning!

Shoot me an email to [email protected] and I'll try to help out further.
 
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