[Brendan_LS]

You know what Im talking about...the BOSCH ignition spark advance box.

What are its inputs? meaning does it share any of the sensor inputs with the L-jet? I know of at least one input...the one which is supposed to be disconnected on the t-stat housing. Or is this thing just basic-basic.

What is this thing...BOSCH EZ-L or knock sensor-less EZ-K? or something Milano specific

It has a 24 pin 'chip' inside...anybody know whats on it? does it have a RPM X ignition advance map on it or RPM X load X advance? I know it has a RPM limiter somewhere in it...hardware or software controlled?

I know that its not worth keeping if real control over ignition advance is wanted, but im just a curious monkey...

now...ive read things in the past about knock sensors and the 12 Valve engines. Some say NO others say YES...any consensus? Is the engine entirely too noisy for knock sensors? generally knock sensor systems will only listen for knock during spark events, but is the engine still too noisy?

Id like to install an ignition system which will advance the timing based on a programmable map, as well as knock conditions, so Id like to know if its possible on the Alfa V6.

 

[Milanoverde]

I have the GoTech which is one of many systems out there. Works great and controls guel and ignition and differing loads and engine speeds.

Tony Brucia

 

[Brendan_LS]

oh believe me, I know MANY of the aftermarket systems out there, and have installed many, including AEM, GoTech, Microtech, MS, Haltech and others, but these days im interested in modifying stuff like Motronic, and LH-Jetronic and such...

i know these aftermarket systems are SOOOOO much better, im just curious about the old technology, and want to play around with stuff thats all.

right now im running my old saab 900 in wasted spark, using 2 volvo EZK boxes, which i have modified the maps ...i like playing with the old stuff too

 

[ToonRboy]

Educate yourself Bosch L-Jetronic Technical Manual

Question: What is the current static timing you have your Milano set at? IMO the stock ignition curve is fine. It's the stock initial advance that's conservative.

 

[Brendan_LS]

ive set mine to around 12° BTDC, and it seems better.

i understand completely how L-jet works, and have modified them by changing a couple of resistors etc, but the ignition spark box is black magic to me at this point, until i get my oscilloscope on it that is.

i know its a long shot, as most people just change for aftermarket EMS, when they want control of ignition timing. But i also know that there were/are modified boxes ignition boxes available...someone must know more about them.

anybody know more about knock sensors and the alfa V6 (12V)engine? too noisy?

 

[slyalfa]

My guess is that it is analogue just like the L-junk.
if you wanted to change it I would just use the case and put in some sort micro like a ATtiny and I do not think there is any way to do load just RPM based. but if you added a vac line and a MAP sender than you could do that too.

 

[JoeCab]

My guess is that it is analogue just like the L-junk.

The 2.5 and 3.0 spark boxes are different and the connector to the wiring harness isn't the same. I seem to remember the one for the 3.0 was "digital" which at the time was touted as an improvement.

 

[ToonRboy]

ive set mine to around 12° BTDC, and it seems better.

Seems better? Stock is 2° advance on the 2.5, I've run 10° which was pushing it (required Premium fuel). I've backed-down to 7° which is stock advance for the 3.0. Much improved throttle response and low speed pickup over stock. There is a pont of diminishing returns...

i understand completely how L-jet works,

Even though that link I provided says "Bosch L-Jetronic Technical Manual", it does cover ignition. Starting on page 11 (where the link goes).

I know reading is dangerous, but I promise, you're not gonna learn what you seek on YouTube. That's for sure.

 

[Brendan_LS]

12° is only 5 degrees higher than the stock timing on my verde, also the engine is decently modded and even in factory form must be run on premium anyways. I use the extra timing to boost the 'off cam' performance in the lower revs (C & B cams), and it seems to be great. Advancing further to 14° yields a flat spot in the power band right around 3-3500 rpm. Engine is 10.5:1 CR, Total Seal rings, has ported heads and runners as well as radius valve grind. There is no detectable detonation running premium 91/92 octane.

the bosch manual does go into breakerless ignition, however the milano 3.0 ignition system is digital, unlike the typical breakerless ignition found in many other L-jet cars. The weights are locked down inside the distributor. It is 'dwell smart' (uses a bosch '124' dwell-less ignition amplifier)and does have a digital map inside, where timing is advanced vs. RPM. It also has a sensor on the thermostat housing to retard the timing below a certain temp. It also has a rev-limit built in at 5800 RPM. This is all I know

i was just looking for information to see if anyone else with a chip burner has explored further. Many other communities (saab/volvo/bmw) regularly chip tune their cars with a laptop using the factory management and an emulator...

If I wanted to have complete control of the cars' systems, I would simply install a BMW (or whatever) Motronic system incl. injectors, convert it to run on a Mustang MAF, and be happy...I WILL ultimately take this route. I just wanted to get my chip burner out and raise the 5800 limiter, so I can re-install it instead of using the 2.5 milano (6400 rpm)one (which works ok, I guess)...

 

[ToonRboy]

If I wanted to have complete control of the cars' systems, I would simply install a BMW (or whatever) Motronic system incl. injectors, convert it to run on a Mustang MAF, and be happy...

That's what they all say!


Well, for a guy who has all the foundation mods done, I'm a bit surprised at your question. If all you wanted to know is how to remove the rev limiter, you sure went about it the 'round about way. Yes, it's possible and has been done. However, it's not done in the ignition, it's a fuel cutoff on these cars. You know, that L-Jet system that you know completely.

 

[MilanoVerdebc]

Yay Brendan for being a vintage tech head! I will be doing my T-belt soon and will bump my
BTDC to 7 to see if i can get a beeter launch with my lazy old 12 v . Thanks guys!

 

[papajam]

...the milano 3.0 ignition system is digital, unlike the typical breakerless ignition found in many other L-jet cars.

The ignition system in the L-jet Alfa Spiders (82-89) is digital as well.

 

[JoeCab]

However, it's not done in the ignition, it's a fuel cutoff on these cars. You know, that L-Jet system that you know completely.

ToonRboy - Not so fast - actually there are two separate rev-limiters. IIRC, removing the fuel-cut raises the limit somewhat, but there is still a limiter in the ignition ECU.

 

[alfaparticle]

I agree with Joe that there are rev limiters on both the fuel injection and ignition.

 

[Duk]

anybody know more about knock sensors and the alfa V6 (12V)engine? too noisy?

I think you'll be very hard pressed to filter the noise out of a knock sensor signal. Aluminium being a better conductor of sound than cast iron and the old pushrod, rocker, small base circle cam lobes generate much noise.

Adding a (or 2, 1 either side) small piezoelectric microphone to the block (if you used 2 microphones, you could try diametrically opposite. Left front/right rear for example), preferably in the centre and between the line of the crankshaft and the cylinder head. Feed piezoelectric microphone signal into a small amplifier and listen to the noise that comes out via some headphones. This approach has become a very popular way to detect knock when tuning after market systems or factory systems that have poor performing knock sensor feedback.
Your brain will do a better job of discerning real knock from engine noise.

 

[Brendan_LS]

yes, removing the limiter on L-jet is easy. The limiter on the 'digital' ignition systems is 50 RPM higher than the L-jet, so thats 5800 in a Verde.


I wanted to know about the knock sensors on the 12V because I would like to use the knock detecting functionality of some aftermarket system. I am not sure if this engine has too much valve lifter noise in order for the systems to figure out whats knock and whats lifters...The headphone and knock sensor trick does work. Ive done this in the past and was amazed that you could even hear the oil flowing inside the oil pump.

 

[Duk]

I wanted to know about the knock sensors on the 12V because I would like to use the knock detecting functionality of some aftermarket system. I am not sure if this engine has too much valve lifter noise in order for the systems to figure out whats knock and whats lifters...The headphone and knock sensor trick does work. Ive done this in the past and was amazed that you could even hear the oil flowing inside the oil pump.

Have a look at Adaptronic's software (WARI), they have a knock sensor feedback and you can apparently set it up to differentiate between background (engine) noise actual knock. I haven't looked to far into it myself, to much other stuff to get wired and working 1st.

 

[Brendan_LS]

thanks, will do.

 

[ToonRboy]

ToonRboy - Not so fast - actually there are two separate rev-limiters. IIRC, removing the fuel-cut raises the limit somewhat, but there is still a limiter in the ignition ECU.

You could be right Joe (back it up with some data). From what I recall, the ECU is where the rev limit was raised and the ignition module was where they "re-mapped" the curve a little more aggressively (Pandora's Box et al). I haven't found much out there on the circuits re: the ignition module.

The general consensus is that the fuel and ignition are separate, but if you look at the wiring schematics you will see certain connections. I think the ECU checks voltage and powers the coil, may also send the signal for the electronic tachometer but I'm not sure)

 

[Brendan_LS]

if you install a 2.5 milano ECU (6300 cut) in a Verde, the limiter is exactly the same (5800), thus it seems that there is a fuel AND ignition cut...why? who knows!