Alfa Romeo Forums banner
21 - 40 of 61 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
99 Posts
I have used 91 (your 95) fuel in my 164 since new. Almost always Shell. This is our premium grade fuel and contains no ethanol. No fuel system problems other than seepage fumes from the tank screws and engine compartment clamping positions. O rings under the screw heads fixed the tank fume issue and double clamping fixed the engine compartment issue.

It's an unbelievably stupid idea to put ethanol in road fuel. Biofuel is generally fuel made from food crops, mostly corn (maize) in North America. Canada uses other grains as well because we can't grow enough maize this far north. We have some other sources of the necessary carbohydrates but sell most of that fuel to the US. Consuming food to make transport fuel is nonsense. Using arable land to grow transport fuel is stupid. Mind you, grinding up trees to burn to generate electricity is right up there with the top mind blowingly stupid ideas.

I just found out we are adding hydrogen to our natural gas, reducing its energy content to no useful purpose. The hydrogen is obtained at great cost by removing the carbon from some natural gas and remixing the hydrogen back in. Makes a greener fuel if you ignore the carbon dioxide problem created when you take the carbon out of the natural gas.

These are all government plans, not consumer driven at all. Don't encourage this idiocy.

This is all madness on a grand scale.
Everything they do is idiocy, banning petrol cars and putting world depleting batteries in their place is moronic. They know it too, it's just another way to make money 20 years down the line when they decide it's not sustainable as they did with diesel cars.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
99 Posts
It is a big question mark for Euro 164s with our plastic fuel tanks. Hoses and seals are easy enough to change for R9 and viton but what about the plastic tank and rubbers around the fuel pump? These are already incredibly hard to get hold of so the last thing we need is to risk destroying the limited stock we have.
I pulled into a BP petrol station today and saw their 95 octane fuel is now E10, only the premium 97 octane fuel is E5. Was so annoyed I left without getting any. Am actually debating going for supermarket fuel now - probably Sainsbury's rather than from Tesco - with intermittent purchases from BP. I only do about 4,000 miles a year but even so it feels like us older car customers are being ripped off - yet we are in many ways more environmentally friendly than new car owners, who pollute with all the nasties of a new car production and junking of an old. The emmissions on my 164 are a mere fraction of the maximum allowed, yet how many almost new diesel cars have we seen leaving clouds of black, carcinogenic smoke in their wake?
Mad.
You might as well us supermarket own premium, it will cost similar to BP regular and still be E5 (I would hope) and the octane benefits of super (which do nothing to a 164 anyway) only last a couple of weeks, if you do that sort of mileage, you aren't using a tank in 2 weeks I'd guess?.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,419 Posts
Supermarket filling stations get their fuel from the few big refiners so that won't avoid the ethanol problem.

Ethanol in petrol is just a greenie weenie problem, nothing to do with emissions of toxic or potentially toxic substances. Reduction of CO2 is the only stated reason for adding ethanol to motor fuels.

The idiots guide to climate informs the greenie weenie environmentals that ethanol is renewable because it comes from growing crops (or other sun fuelled biomass). What is overlooked (in all cases actually where "renewables" are discussed) is the sheer amount of power replacement required. This literally cannot be done. "Every little bit helps" is absolute nonsense if the addition of CO2 to the atmosphere is the problem it is said to be. Only a massive restructuring of the World economy accompanied by a significant reduction in total population will allow sufficient reductions in non renewable energy use to make a difference, assuming a reduction in CO2 is required which is far from being demonstrated by anyone.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
99 Posts
Supermarket filling stations get their fuel from the few big refiners so that won't avoid the ethanol problem.

Ethanol in petrol is just a greenie weenie problem, nothing to do with emissions of toxic or potentially toxic substances. Reduction of CO2 is the only stated reason for adding ethanol to motor fuels.

The idiots guide to climate informs the greenie weenie environmentals that ethanol is renewable because it comes from growing crops (or other sun fuelled biomass). What is overlooked (in all cases actually where "renewables" are discussed) is the sheer amount of power replacement required. This literally cannot be done. "Every little bit helps" is absolute nonsense if the addition of CO2 to the atmosphere is the problem it is said to be. Only a massive restructuring of the World economy accompanied by a significant reduction in total population will allow sufficient reductions in non renewable energy use to make a difference, assuming a reduction in CO2 is required which is far from being demonstrated by anyone.
No, but using super (from anywhere in the UK) means we are putting E5 into the tank, not E10, that was the point being made.

And yes, most of these legislations if not all, are likely being made to line someone's pocket rather than save the world
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,861 Posts
Discussion Starter · #25 ·
Yup, Sam. Sure someone is getting rich on it somewhere. E5 supermarket fuel here I come....
As for Michael's comment on CO2 being of questionable impact on the world, given all the climate change evident before our very eyes, on a regular basis, don't see how anyone can still question the science of it.
 

·
Moderator
2015 Chevy (Holden) SS, 1989 Milano (Shankle Sport), 1991 164S
Joined
·
17,335 Posts
Be aware that many supermarket gas stations do not sell gasoline with Tier 1 required FI cleaners.

Regarding CO2, my friends at Goddard SFC Earth Sciences just shake their collective heads concerning deniers.

Meanwhile, if you use ordinary supermarket gas, you should probably use FI cleaners in addition.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,861 Posts
Discussion Starter · #27 ·
Thanks, Del. Planning to alternate between refills of supermarket E5 fuel and super expensive 97 octane E5. Cheers.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
99 Posts
Be aware that many supermarket gas stations do not sell gasoline with Tier 1 required FI cleaners.

Regarding CO2, my friends at Goddard SFC Earth Sciences just shake their collective heads concerning deniers.

Meanwhile, if you use ordinary supermarket gas, you should probably use FI cleaners in addition.
I'm not sure the same will apply at our UK filling stations especially concerning the premium or super grade unleaded
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,419 Posts
"Far from being demonstrated by anyone" refers to the presumed effect of human produced CO2.

All that has been demonstrated so far is that the average global temperature appears to be rising, a phenomenon observed since the 17 th century. That is the only scientific fact for which the evidence is reasonably compelling.

Equally compelling are the calculations showing the sheer magnitude of the energy replacement problem. At present, nothing useful can be done about the rising temperature by us puny humans.

Diluting petrol with ethanol is demonstrably useless as a method of combatting the stated problem if indeed we can do so. Make no mistake, nobody anywhere has proved that CO2 is the key driver of the observed temperature change.
 

·
Moderator
2015 Chevy (Holden) SS, 1989 Milano (Shankle Sport), 1991 164S
Joined
·
17,335 Posts
Nothing is 100% anything, but the implications, as clearly demonstrated by the evidence collected around the world by very qualified researchers, are so strong that the vast majority of scientists disagree with your premise. Since there is no Planet B for humans, and the flora and fauna as we know it, why put our heads in the sand and deny the possibilities, since the ramifications are very significant to both the Earth's human societies and at least the fauna/wildlife in general. You buy car and house insurance, don't you?

We have the choice, fauna does not.

Agree that adding corn based alcohol to gasoline is a worthless endeavor, done in most part in the US to politically please the conservative corn lobby. I've read that it actually costs more energy to create "gasohol" than not.

Meanwhile, at least in the US, and evidently Canada as well, don't know about Mexico, using 10% alcohol based fuel in our later model Alfas is of no consequence, as long as the OEM fuel lines have been changed. Then of course, there is Brazil, which has mandated 100% alcohol fuel for a long time. What changes are required for Alfas in that country?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,530 Posts
Del, not sure about you guys but here the addition of ethanol was a means to reuse a waste product. A waste product that was 'traditionally' burned. That was my understanding 20 years ago anyway. We can also buy E85 at selected stations. The turbo guys love it as they can turn up the turbo pressure and timing making huge amounts of power. As for co2, climate change ect ect I think you would have to live in a cave to not understand what's going on. I wont comment further because like talking to people that deny, or claim covid is a hoax it is completely pointless.
 

·
Moderator
2015 Chevy (Holden) SS, 1989 Milano (Shankle Sport), 1991 164S
Joined
·
17,335 Posts
As far as I know, our corn based alcohol is made from corn itself, not waste products, although that is starting to take hold.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,419 Posts
Canada's taxpayers paid dearly for a plant that claimed to reuse cellulose waste to manufacture ethanol.

Some might say there's no such thing as wasted ethanol...unless you are wasted of course.

I recognize there are many who buy into the human caused global warming but the facts are nothing has yet been proved by anyone. Science by statistical analysis and computer modelling just isn't science, its just statistics. The no planet B and the precautionary principle are not science either.
 

·
Moderator
2015 Chevy (Holden) SS, 1989 Milano (Shankle Sport), 1991 164S
Joined
·
17,335 Posts
Uh huh. Upon reflection, it is clear you don't "get" Science. Statistics and computer models are just samples of the many scientific tools researchers use to help visualize and hopefully analyze the enormous amount of information and records of phenomenon they gather from around the world in many areas of real scientific study. Useful scientific tools.

Applied mathematics concerns itself with mathematical methods that are typically used in science and engineering. Thus, applied mathematics is a mathematical science with specialized knowledge.

The use of computer simulations represents the use of the applied mathematics, and in fact it can be defined that the actual development of computer simulations themselves is an applied science.

The essential key to Science is the thinking and imagination of the educated and inquisitive researchers, not the helpful scientific tools themselves. The World of Science is bigger than you imagine. It's the basic human search for answers to "what" and "why".

My PHD Geophysics wife, and friends at Goddard who managed it's Visualization Lab, just say to forget it. Yup. Life is too short these days.


Meanwhile, it would be interesting to know what changes are required in Alfas in Brazil. Any Brazilian owners? Or... did they even sell Alfas there after the requirement for 100% alcohol fuel?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,861 Posts
Discussion Starter · #35 ·
Today I put in supermarket fuel. Tesco Super 99 octane e5. Car seems to like it. Will still put in BP fuel (e5 super 97 octane) ever 3rd top up.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,419 Posts
Uh huh. Upon reflection, it is clear you don't "get" Science. Statistics and computer models are just samples of the many scientific tools researchers use to help visualize and hopefully analyze the enormous amount of information and records of phenomenon they gather from around the world in many areas of real scientific study. Just useful scientific tools.

The essential key to Science is the thinking and imagination of the educated and inquisitive researchers, not the helpful scientific tools themselves. The World of Science is bigger than you imagine. It's the basic human search for answers to "what" and "why".

My PHD Geophysics wife, and friends at Goddard who managed it's Visualization Lab, just say to forget it. Yup. Life is too short these days.


Meanwhile, it would be interesting to know what changes are required in Alfas in Brazil. Any Brazilian owners? Or... did they even sell Alfas there after the requirement for 100% alcohol fuel?
I am a natural scientist. Statistics and computer models are indeed tools usable by scientists but they are not science per se. Incidentally, not one computer model gives any useful insight into climate change. Not a single one. Statistics isn't science, it's a branch of mathematics. GIGO.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
99 Posts
Today I put in supermarket fuel. Tesco Super 99 octane e5. Car seems to like it. Will still put in BP fuel (e5 super 97 octane) ever 3rd top up.
That momentum stuff is pretty good tbf, my GTA really liked it too but I could imagine that being clever enough to optimise fuel and ignition.

Did you notice any difference in the running of your 164?

I really wouldn't worry about putting yourself out of the way especially to get BP Ultimate, its really no better. But if it gives you peace of mind I suppose it's worth it :).
 

·
Moderator
2015 Chevy (Holden) SS, 1989 Milano (Shankle Sport), 1991 164S
Joined
·
17,335 Posts
"A natural scientist" ? Your field of expertise?

Sound more like a "pure mathematician" who does not like to recognize applied mathematics and all it's science branches. My brother was encouraged to become a pure mathematician until he realized that applied mathematics, ie, engineering and the sciences were more his bag.

Statistical studies can be as valid as that put into them, as they reflect the information gathered from the research of thousands of scientists. Hardly input garbage, but real information as collected. If there is GIGO, then the onus is on the researchers to verify that what they put in is the actual verified information. Easily checked. What comes out is the display of the valid information as collected. Thus organizations such as the Verification Lab at Goddard, where the displays are studied, and manipulated, to better understand and increase the depth of their scientific analyses.

It is recognized that there are some who would always think GIGO with statistical analyses. Their problem, not the researchers'.


So, no word from anyone in Brazil about their Alfas and alcohol usage? Would love to know. Maybe there are no BB members there?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
99 Posts
This thread is taking an odd turn from E10 fuel lol.

From what I understand the 164 was made at a time when Brazil was using something like E25. About 10 years on they started moving to pure ethanol so it's not likely that a Brazil spec 164 is designed to run with E100. However, from what I understand, part of the problem with the Ethanol fuel is it separates from the regular unleaded petrol it's mixed with as it attracts water, this can leave a lot of water somewhere (like the bottom of the tank) but If it's all ethanol, the water should be evenly dispersed in the fuel.

If that's the case it would just be the injectors and rubber that would need changing I think.
 

·
Moderator
2015 Chevy (Holden) SS, 1989 Milano (Shankle Sport), 1991 164S
Joined
·
17,335 Posts
That's my thoughts as well as far as Alfas being used in Brazil. I would also suspect that whether the fuel is E10 or E100, those simple changes should be fine, along with some retuning for a different effective octane. Wish one would comment.

Sorry for having diverted the subject. Was raised in the Sciences, married to the Sciences, have friends who are well regarded scientists, so I see things differently than the other guy. Such is life. Time will certainly tell us what is really happening, regardless of what he thinks. Promise to stay away, regardless of what is espoused. I think we got the idea.

Alfas are much more fun, lol.
 
21 - 40 of 61 Posts
Top